Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Undercurrent · 01-15-2003, 07:48 PM

(Toss up about whether to put this in S&S or PD -- It is political, but I'm more pissed off by the lack of skeptcism expected of the reader than the politics)

Saw this statistic in this article, regarding the elimination of taxes on dividends:

Quote:

Forget the "tax break to the wealthy" rhetoric -- the IRS's own sources show that American households claiming income of less than $50,000 had dividend income of $26.9 billion in 2001, while those reporting income above $1 million had dividend income of $25.4 billion.

No mind that "households claiming income of less than $50000" is at least half of all US households, and that "thoser reporting income of above $1 million" is a tiny sliver. It's basically "here is a number related to the effect on low-income people, here is another number related to the effect on the rich, they are equal, so it is fair." If the numbers hadn't worked out with $50000 and $1000000, they could have increased them both until it did work.

It pisses me off that this comes from the Motley Fool, because they're supposed to be about questioning authorities who produce statistics like that.

m.

The Admiral · 01-18-2003, 05:49 PM

There are lies
There are damned lies
And there are statistics

Sam Clemons

Wyz_sub10 · 01-18-2003, 08:42 PM

It isn't inappropriate here, but I think it will get far more play in Political Discussions.

trunks2k · 01-18-2003, 09:01 PM

Statistics don't lie. But liars use statistics.

Psycho Economist · 01-18-2003, 09:33 PM

I'd really like to see a finer breakdown, myself. Maybe by quartiles or deciles of household income.... hmm... Do I want to spend the time looking?

LeftCoast · 01-19-2003, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psycho Economist
I'd really like to see a finer breakdown, myself. Maybe by quartiles or deciles of household income.... hmm... Do I want to spend the time looking?

Your wish is my command:

Found some relevant data on the IRS web-site. Look on Page 8 - You'll need Adobe Acrobat. This is from TY 2000.

Broken down by income:

Code:

Reported AGI     Total #         Total #         Total Amount    Average   Average
                 of returns    Reporting      Reported for     of those      over all
                               Dividends      Dividends       Reporting    returns
15K and Under    38,648,827  5,530, 905    6.6 Billion         $1,193        $170
15K to 30K      30,078,984   4,368,683    8.2 Billion         $1,877        $272
30K to 50K      23,958,021   5,636,780    11.5 Billion       $2,040        $480
50K to  100K     25,730,046  10,671,072   27.3 Billion       $2,558        $1061
100K to 200K     8,084,251    5,447,659    27.2 Billion       $4992         $3,364
200K or more     2,771,875    2,443,618    61.3 Billion        $25,085      $22,115

As with most apologists for the Bush tax cut, his use of statistics is slippery at best and downright deceitful at worst.

The above table clearly shows where the majority of the proposed tax cut will go. The clown who wrote the article at the Motley Fool web-site also conveniently failed to note that even if you grant his original data, in TY 2000 there were 92.6 million returns filed with an AGI under 50K and there were exactly 239,685 returns filed showing an AGI of 1 Million or higher.

As Mark Twain said: �Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics�

Edited because I realized my link didn't work.

Loren Pechtel · 01-19-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeftCoast

The above table clearly shows where the majority of the proposed tax cut will go. The clown who wrote the article at the Motley Fool web-site also conveniently failed to note that even if you grant his original data, in TY 2000 there were 92.6 million returns filed with an AGI under 50K and there were exactly 239,685 returns filed showing an AGI of 1 Million or higher.

As Mark Twain said: �Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics�

An interesting observation on your table. Of the households that report dividends, the percentage of total income that comprises the dividends keeps dropping as income rises other than in the 200k+ bracket which is distorted anyway.

Arrowman · 01-19-2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loren Pechtel
An interesting observation on your table. Of the households that report dividends, the percentage of total income that comprises the dividends keeps dropping as income rises other than in the 200k+ bracket which is distorted anyway.

Indeed; the same thought occurred to me. I don't know the detail of the issue of "Bush's proposed tax cuts" but it seems to me that the table in question is not a powerful argument against tax breaks for investors.

Corey Hammer · 01-20-2003, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Admiral
There are lies
There are damned lies
And there are statistics

Sam Clemons

IIRC, Benjamin Disraeli said that.

Hubble head · 01-20-2003, 08:48 AM

I was looking for something like this to compare the apples to the oranges that Washinton says are somehow all the same.

The bottom 92 million (almost 1/2 our working population) get to devide what the top 240,000 get?

I am not a socialist or a communist but I still believe when one's cup runeth over, ONE MUST STOP POURING.

The more I watch Bush and co. the more I suspect there really is a one sided class war going on here.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-18-2003, 05:49 PM	#2
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	There are lies There are damned lies And there are statistics Sam Clemons

01-18-2003, 08:42 PM	#3
Wyz_sub10 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the land of two boys and no sleep. Posts: 9,890	It isn't inappropriate here, but I think it will get far more play in Political Discussions.

01-18-2003, 09:01 PM	#4
trunks2k Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 6,997	Statistics don't lie. But liars use statistics.

01-18-2003, 09:33 PM	#5
Psycho Economist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 854	I'd really like to see a finer breakdown, myself. Maybe by quartiles or deciles of household income.... hmm... Do I want to spend the time looking?

01-20-2003, 08:48 AM	#10
Hubble head Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Corn rows Posts: 4,570	I was looking for something like this to compare the apples to the oranges that Washinton says are somehow all the same. The bottom 92 million (almost 1/2 our working population) get to devide what the top 240,000 get? I am not a socialist or a communist but I still believe when one's cup runeth over, ONE MUST STOP POURING. The more I watch Bush and co. the more I suspect there really is a one sided class war going on here.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.