Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Laurentius · 08-22-2002, 02:43 PM

Taking for granted that man makes his own choices,
then beliefs can be chosen,
either emotionally or rationally,
although the two processes are radically different:
affinities on the one hand,
and rationalities on the other.
The latter are meant to harmoniously complete the puzzle that makes one's perspective on the whole, whose main belief may be emotionally chosen (determined?), though.
In case of affinities, we're dealing with a subtle edge - I've come across with people whose overall principles were similar to mine, only that they were religious and I was not, as if we were the negative (or positive?) replica of each other.
I don't know how people experience this in general, but I can trace the processes through which I came to stick to or give up a belief or another.

AVE

08-22-2002, 05:39 PM

Laurentius,

By this same argument man has a free will because inclinations are often opposite to rational thoughts. Therefore are we inclined to do the things we do not want to do and believe the things we do not want to believe.

[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

excreationist · 08-22-2002, 06:16 PM

WJ:
...Again, covering old ground, there is no biological advantage to knowing the laws of gravity in order to dodge falling objects!...
The laws of gravity would have helped us send things into space and perhaps build nuclear weapons... but anyway, the "laws" of gravity are passed down from generation to generation culturally(?) - we aren't born with those beliefs. What I was saying is that people are born with various motivating "drives" which motivate them to learn about how the world works. Sometimes they can learn about useless, trivial things, but they also can learn about things that can benefit their survival - e.g. how to tame wild animals to use as a reliable source of food, etc. So the effects of our drives can sometimes do little to help us survive, but overall, the reason I think those drives evolved is because they helped improve our chances of survival.

Now, you mentioned sentience is learnt. I find this extreamly puzzling (to say the least) in the face of conscious existence. The fact that we naturally wonder about our existence directly suggests sentience is the cause to our being curious.
Yeah, our curiosity and awareness are both instinctual... but I think post-toddler level consciousness is learnt. If you kept a baby alive in a sound-proofed pitch-black box I don't think it would reach that level of consciousness. Same with higher levels of consciousness, like philosopher-level consciousness where they can wonder about what can be known for certain about the reality we perceive, etc. That would be learnt. If you got some wolves to raise some babies I don't think they'd reach that level of consciousness. The ancient Greeks were about the first people who started playing around with those ideas.

We *feel* the need, thru our emotions, to find possible explainations to our existence in the world in some way shape or form. Whether it is thru ethics, science, humanities and so on, the need is inescapable and relates to a sense of purpose in life. Which in turn, relates back to certain 'innate' needs viz. consciousness.
I'd call this our "connectedness" drive. And curiousity would be about our "newness" drive.

In short, and to answer your question, the will to believe comes before making decisions about what to believe and/or what is (considered by an individual) appropriate to believe. As Kant would say; questions like what 'shall I do' and 'what can I know' are 'innate' to the human experience and existence.
I think believing things just involves the brain finding which learnt associations have the strongest match - i.e. they make the most sense or are the most consistent with what we already "know". This would be an automatic process.

If you had no sense of purpose or need, what would happen...

Any thoughts?
You'd vegetate and have no desire to think. I've felt like that in the past...

Laurentius · 08-23-2002, 07:42 PM

I think Goethe wrote a novel entitled something like "Elective Affinities".
Under the pressure of what we naturally tend to do we may make rational decisions the rationality of which we may or may not be aware of.

Secular Elation · 08-23-2002, 07:45 PM

Can beliefs be chosen?

They can be chosen, but none of then could be true.

Infinity Lover · 08-24-2002, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by primemover:
<strong>Hello,

I have seen it posted this that beliefs can't be chosen. Yet many propose that their non-belief was reached, at least to some extent, by deductive reasoning. I am confused, isn't that making a choice?</strong>

Seems to me your real question is "does non-religion constitute as a choice?"
If you used to be a believer � guess it would, but consider this...

A choice requires a minimum of TWO available options. If it's just one, you can't even call it an option and there isn't much of a choice.

You only believe there's a choice to be made between accepting the existence of a god or not, if you also believe there is a god to (not) choose for.

So religion is only a choice if you BELIEVE it is!
(Except when you're given a religious upbringing; in that case they don't leave you much of a choice)

Laurentius · 08-24-2002, 01:45 PM

_______________________________________________
“Can you choose, right now, to believe in […]?”

”Actually, I could, were I so to desire.”
-----------------------------------------------

Choosing is an act of will.
Choosing to believe in something is to grant the content of that particular belief the right to existence, the right to be part of reality.
Truth and reality are accepted quite voluntarily.
The volitional process by which reality takes shape in one’s mind employs both facts and non-facts (feelings).

AVE

popeontheropes · 08-25-2002, 02:58 PM

belief...hmmmm...here we all go again on faith and the unprovable. if you believe in somthing it is because no one can prove it is not true and it makes sense to you .
if you were raised in an environment where no mention of god or any spiritualism was ever made, you would have no beliefs..at least not as far as that. you could then choose what to believe according to what sounds most likely or more fun or is in accordance with your own feelings.
initially though, your beliefs would be crafted by your parents or whoever was the most influential figure in your life. santa claus proves this.So, it is true that you don't , at least in the beginning, choose your beliefs.
But when presented with conflicting evidence and a variety of differing viewpoints and theories regarding a certain subject, you certainly do choose what to believe and that belief is based on the faith you have in the veracity of the stand point you have chosen to take . in the face of truth, however , belief is moot. it is utterly irrelavent what you feel or believe. it is what it is. if i have a tree in my yard that is blue , bright blue , and it dies and rots and no one has ever seen it, and i then go and regale folks with tales of my life and times with my blue tree , they will either believe me or not , they will need to make that choice. those who choose not to believe will have a litany of evidencial reasonings why i am full of crap. people who do believe me will be expressing blind faith in me and my tree. But niether side has any ground to stand on because the truth is no longer determinable , even though i know that tree was blue..it has become a matter of faith..does it sound reasonable to someone else.
in general you do choose what to believe. The fact of the matter is that you cannot choose to believe what is absolutly true it is fact no matter what you think. the onnly thing you can believe is somthing for which there is no tangible evidence and when you concider something that cannot be proven , you then must rely on personal experience to determin weather or not you believe it. if it seems rational then , what the hell..i believe !
You absolutly do and must choose what to believe. if it is a fact you know it..if it is a theory you believe it or not. if you are weak minded you are told what to believe and if not,you choose.But, belief, like it or not , is subjective and exists in the absence of proof.

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08-22-2002, 02:43 PM	#41
Laurentius Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Lucky Bucky, Oz Posts: 5,645	Taking for granted that man makes his own choices, then beliefs can be chosen, either emotionally or rationally, although the two processes are radically different: affinities on the one hand, and rationalities on the other. The latter are meant to harmoniously complete the puzzle that makes one's perspective on the whole, whose main belief may be emotionally chosen (determined?), though. In case of affinities, we're dealing with a subtle edge - I've come across with people whose overall principles were similar to mine, only that they were religious and I was not, as if we were the negative (or positive?) replica of each other. I don't know how people experience this in general, but I can trace the processes through which I came to stick to or give up a belief or another. AVE

08-22-2002, 05:39 PM	#42
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Laurentius, By this same argument man has a free will because inclinations are often opposite to rational thoughts. Therefore are we inclined to do the things we do not want to do and believe the things we do not want to believe. [ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

08-22-2002, 06:16 PM	#43
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	WJ: ...Again, covering old ground, there is no biological advantage to knowing the laws of gravity in order to dodge falling objects!... The laws of gravity would have helped us send things into space and perhaps build nuclear weapons... but anyway, the "laws" of gravity are passed down from generation to generation culturally(?) - we aren't born with those beliefs. What I was saying is that people are born with various motivating "drives" which motivate them to learn about how the world works. Sometimes they can learn about useless, trivial things, but they also can learn about things that can benefit their survival - e.g. how to tame wild animals to use as a reliable source of food, etc. So the effects of our drives can sometimes do little to help us survive, but overall, the reason I think those drives evolved is because they helped improve our chances of survival. Now, you mentioned sentience is learnt. I find this extreamly puzzling (to say the least) in the face of conscious existence. The fact that we naturally wonder about our existence directly suggests sentience is the cause to our being curious. Yeah, our curiosity and awareness are both instinctual... but I think post-toddler level consciousness is learnt. If you kept a baby alive in a sound-proofed pitch-black box I don't think it would reach that level of consciousness. Same with higher levels of consciousness, like philosopher-level consciousness where they can wonder about what can be known for certain about the reality we perceive, etc. That would be learnt. If you got some wolves to raise some babies I don't think they'd reach that level of consciousness. The ancient Greeks were about the first people who started playing around with those ideas. We feel the need, thru our emotions, to find possible explainations to our existence in the world in some way shape or form. Whether it is thru ethics, science, humanities and so on, the need is inescapable and relates to a sense of purpose in life. Which in turn, relates back to certain 'innate' needs viz. consciousness. I'd call this our "connectedness" drive. And curiousity would be about our "newness" drive. In short, and to answer your question, the will to believe comes before making decisions about what to believe and/or what is (considered by an individual) appropriate to believe. As Kant would say; questions like what 'shall I do' and 'what can I know' are 'innate' to the human experience and existence. I think believing things just involves the brain finding which learnt associations have the strongest match - i.e. they make the most sense or are the most consistent with what we already "know". This would be an automatic process. If you had no sense of purpose or need, what would happen... Any thoughts? You'd vegetate and have no desire to think. I've felt like that in the past...

08-23-2002, 07:42 PM	#44
Laurentius Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Lucky Bucky, Oz Posts: 5,645	I think Goethe wrote a novel entitled something like "Elective Affinities". Under the pressure of what we naturally tend to do we may make rational decisions the rationality of which we may or may not be aware of.

08-23-2002, 07:45 PM	#45
Secular Elation Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: California Posts: 6,196	Can beliefs be chosen? They can be chosen, but none of then could be true.

08-24-2002, 01:45 PM	#47
Laurentius Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Lucky Bucky, Oz Posts: 5,645	_______________________________________________ “Can you choose, right now, to believe in […]?” ”Actually, I could, were I so to desire.” ----------------------------------------------- Choosing is an act of will. Choosing to believe in something is to grant the content of that particular belief the right to existence, the right to be part of reality. Truth and reality are accepted quite voluntarily. The volitional process by which reality takes shape in one’s mind employs both facts and non-facts (feelings). AVE

08-25-2002, 02:58 PM	#48
popeontheropes Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: a rutt Posts: 24	belief...hmmmm...here we all go again on faith and the unprovable. if you believe in somthing it is because no one can prove it is not true and it makes sense to you . if you were raised in an environment where no mention of god or any spiritualism was ever made, you would have no beliefs..at least not as far as that. you could then choose what to believe according to what sounds most likely or more fun or is in accordance with your own feelings. initially though, your beliefs would be crafted by your parents or whoever was the most influential figure in your life. santa claus proves this.So, it is true that you don't , at least in the beginning, choose your beliefs. But when presented with conflicting evidence and a variety of differing viewpoints and theories regarding a certain subject, you certainly do choose what to believe and that belief is based on the faith you have in the veracity of the stand point you have chosen to take . in the face of truth, however , belief is moot. it is utterly irrelavent what you feel or believe. it is what it is. if i have a tree in my yard that is blue , bright blue , and it dies and rots and no one has ever seen it, and i then go and regale folks with tales of my life and times with my blue tree , they will either believe me or not , they will need to make that choice. those who choose not to believe will have a litany of evidencial reasonings why i am full of crap. people who do believe me will be expressing blind faith in me and my tree. But niether side has any ground to stand on because the truth is no longer determinable , even though i know that tree was blue..it has become a matter of faith..does it sound reasonable to someone else. in general you do choose what to believe. The fact of the matter is that you cannot choose to believe what is absolutly true it is fact no matter what you think. the onnly thing you can believe is somthing for which there is no tangible evidence and when you concider something that cannot be proven , you then must rely on personal experience to determin weather or not you believe it. if it seems rational then , what the hell..i believe ! You absolutly do and must choose what to believe. if it is a fact you know it..if it is a theory you believe it or not. if you are weak minded you are told what to believe and if not,you choose.But, belief, like it or not , is subjective and exists in the absence of proof.

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