primemover

Hello,

I have seen it posted this that beliefs can't be chosen. Yet many propose that their non-belief was reached, at least to some extent, by deductive reasoning. I am confused, isn't that making a choice?

phlebas

In my experience, beliefs cannot be chosen. Only actions. (And even actions are up for grabs, depending on your stance on free will.)

You can choose to examine evidence, but you can't choose how that evidence will affect your beliefs. When I lost my faith, it wasn't because I wanted to get rid of my faith -- it was because it no longer made sense to me.

If you bump into rainbow_walking on these boards, ask him about his "choice" to stop believing. Ditto Tricia.

If beliefs are chosen, it should be a simple matter to change your mind. Try picking something that goes totally against what you believe, and start believing it, just for a few minutes. I think you'll find that you can't do it.

Skepticwithachainsaw

I gather it was my Post in Game theory that inspired this?

No, I don't think it is.
In my case the conclusions reached by my reasoning made me unable to believe. When you reason and think logically about something you don't chose what conclusion you are going to come to at the end (you may suspect what you think you will conclude but this is far from certain), if you did then you wouldn't be able to produce any original ideas.

To change your belief it normally takes a combination of some new external influence, and some thinking about the new experience.

Like phlebas said, it is impossible to force yourself to believe something against your current, and my previous idea of trying to believe in something absurd, like a flying invisible, ethereal sponge cake floating around your head.
You can't.
You can only believe in something your mind already accepts.


This is actually a deeper question about the mechanism behind your so called "conscious thoughts", how exactly are they developed. It's a difficult subject to think about, because it is simply so fundamental.

I don't see how you can really have total (or even partial) conscious control over your thoughts, I mean you can't choose what you think because by merely thinking about the possible options available for you to think about, you think about them.
You have to have some influence to induce and inspire a thought, thoughts are responses to external stimuli. It's like deliberately trying to avoid thinking about something, by trying to avoid thinking about it you have to think about it... Maybe you can choose what to think about, but in that case what dictates what options spring to mind for you to choose?

Well that's my perspective anyway, sorry if it's a bit confusing, it's hard getting down into words.
Hmm I think this thread maybe deserves a promotion… Philosophy perhaps?

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Beliefs most certainly can be chosen.

I choose to be rational. (Now, given that, if I wish to remain rational, my beliefs will follow from my reason, to a certain extent.)

However, I know many theists who, when confronted with the same types of contradictions which led me from agnosticism to atheism, instead choose to suspend reason, and instead believe in God, angels, the supernatural, mysticism, etc.

Ideas matter, and beliefs explain our relationship (acceptance or rejection) of various ideas, claims, theories, philsophies, etc.

Keith.

ForeverSeeking

Beliefs are definitely a choice.

I changed my beliefs wihtout an apparent catastrophy in my past religion. Why would I do that? I realized that my beliefs did not promote the use of my 'god given' abilities to think, and to reason. How could my beliefs do that, when they are so natural to me? Other beliefs do promote that, yet I do not follow them. That is my choice.

What I wonder about are those that remain in a belief, when they know that the concept of thought are subdued, yet are clearly intellectual, thoughtful, and strong? There are a few people I have in mind, and am always curious how they stick by their long held beliefs.

Gnothi Seauton
<a href="http://www.foreverseeking.com" target="_blank">Forever Seeking Truth</a>

WJ

Yes most beliefs are chosen. Atheism/theism are chosen beliefs. They can be chosen as a conclusion reached thru impersonal methods-deduction, and personal methods-induction.

With regard to deduction, both atheism and theism have contradictions. If one desires to make a more comprehensive or fully intelligent judgement about EOG, by all means use both. However, ultimately, inductive reasonng will provide more benefit because it relates to the 'particular' instead of the 'general'.

The important distinction or point to remember is that the 'particular' directly relates to personal experience and subsequent choice. Arriving at conclusions based on the 'general'-deduction then, results in paradox or even contradiction.

For instance, the question becomes, how does an atheist use logic to arrive at their conclusion? If they use deduction, it is not 'conclusive' enough(in this context) unless of course you choose to believe in a logically necessary Being.

Walrus

Jamie_L

My opinion, as expressed in other threads, is beliefs are not chosen. We can choose to do or not do things that have impact on our beliefs, but the beliefs themselves are conclusions we come to base on observations and experience.

The excellent example from a previous thread (forgive me for not looking up who posted it - my apologies to that poster as well for stealing it):

Can you choose, right now, to believe in Santa Claus?
Can you choose, right now, to believe in fairies and elves?

If you believed in Santa at one time, did you choose to stop? Or did your belief change because of evidence you discovered that made you believe differently?

We believe those propositions which make sense to us based on the knowledge of the world that we have. We cannot choose to have something make sense to us. It either does, or it doesn't.

Jamie

Ojuice5001

No, however, there was a period of a year or two when I chose not to stop. I was one of the stragglers, believing in Santa at a later age than most kids. I had actually read books that mentioned the nonexistence of Santa, and though this could have been enough reason to disbelieve in Santa, I kept on believing. Note, however, that this couldn't have been the case indefinitely.

That's my take on choosing beliefs. It can be done, but only temporarily. The state of affairs looks a certain way to you, and you temporarily, but not indefinitely, choose to believe in something not suggested by the state of affairs. Thus there are periods where I chose to believe in Christianity or naturalistic atheism, and yet when all is said and done, the world I see doesn't look like one of those two worlds. So I couldn't have chosen to believe forever.

Jamie_L

As I see it, you probably didn't "choose" to keep believing. You just continued to believe in the face of other evidence. Your past experience with believing in Santa was powerful enough that the evidence to the contrary did not immedately change your belief.

Ahh, but did you choose to believe? Or did you choose to pursue those belief systems, trying to see if they were believable?

That's my take. I can choose this day to start going to church and trying to open myself to god. That is my choice. But the actual believing will either come or it won't. I can't will the belief into or out of existence.

Jamie

tronvillain

Beliefs may change, but they are not chosen. Well, that is not entirely true - one may deliberately avoid having experiences or thinking thoughts that may alter one's beliefs.