Doug

It seems to me there are 4 possibilities that cause someone to believe in a transcendent, personal God:

1) A passive belief where a person is simply raised that way and never really questions it, although they never really pay that much attention to the teachings of their belief

2) Some sort of philosophical construct whereby the believer has deduced or induced the necessity of God
3) A (perceived) mystical experience

4) After listening to other people and reading the musings of other long dead people, the person is convinced that God (usually a particular rendition of God) exists

My post will concentrate on #4 primarily and will touch on #3 by necessity. In my opinion, #1 has the highest proportion of believers out of the four areas and really isn’t worth talking about anyway because people in this category by definition don’t question their beliefs. The #2 position certainly makes for interesting conversation, but is covered ad nauseum in these forums (ontological argument, design, Pascal’s wager, etc.). It is certainly possible for an individual to combine #’s 2 to 4, but I think that the average person doesn’t try to rationalize belief from non-belief (though it is often true the other way around).

A significant number of believers do come to their conclusions through #3 and #4 on my list. These people are further broken down as follows:

1) Individuals are taught by people the writings of people long dead, then have a mystical experience of some sort

2) Individuals are taught by people the writings of people long dead and never perceive any mystical experience

3) Individuals perceive a mystical experience of some sort, then are taught by people the writings of people long dead

4) Individuals have a mystical experience then never learn about the writings of people long dead

Number 4 can be eliminated, because if someone has never been taught the writings of people long dead, but has a mystical experience and never seeks answers from people teaching the writings of people long dead, they will never understand what happened to them and will at best believe in a force of some kind, not assigning the experience to a particular transcendent, personal god. They could possibly come up with their own version of a transcendent, personal god, but unless they are isolated, this is unlikely.

Number 3 is also a fairly unlikely scenario for individuals that are not isolated. Most people in all but the remotest parts of some third world countries are at least somewhat familiar with the writings of people long dead that pertain to the particular pervasive religion of the part of the world they live in. This would cause them to seek such writings after a perceived mystical experience.

I would argue that most believers by way of a mystical experience and/or being taught by people the writings of people long dead fit into either #1 or #2.

That leaves us with 2 possibilities to talk about.

1. Individuals are taught by people the writings of people long dead, then have a mystical experience of some sort

Perhaps the person waits a while to learn from people about gods or perhaps the person is taught from childhood. These people already have a good idea of the tenets of a particular religion or in rare cases many different religions. In some fashion they are already believers and then have a mystical experience.

In fundamentalist Christian churches, this mystical experience often comes from the “salvation” experience. In other Christian sects it could be from many small experiences such as prayers being answered or a close friend or relative’s miraculous healing. Many believers feel God has “spoken” to them in some fashion.

No matter the perceived mystical experience, it is simply a reinforcement of preconceived notions regarding a transcendent, personal God. These preconceived notions are gained from other people teaching the believer the writings of long dead people. The atheist will explain these experiences as being a mind trick or coincidence, but the reinforcement of the existing belief structure caused by these experiences causes the believer to be convinced otherwise.

2. Individuals perceive a mystical experience of some sort, then are taught by people the writings of people long dead

Many people are taught a religion by people from the writings of people long dead, but never have a reinforcing mystical experience. Even people that go through a salvation experience in fundamentalist Christian churches often are in actuality only going through the motions of what is supposed to eventually happen to them. Nothing “mystical” ever actually happens. They never really feel God has “spoken” to them. They continue believing anyway, convinced by people that the writings of people long dead are the truth, some waiting on their own mystical experience, others not too worried about it.

Conclusion: In both cases the individuals become believers because they are taught by people the writings of people long dead.

Questions:

1. Why should all these people simply believe what other people teach them about the writings of people long dead? By what authority? Many will say by God’s authority, but that means that in order to accept that authority, an individual must believe that the person making that statement is correct. By what authority? This never ends. Often the answer is that the ancient writings were inspired by God. For a person that does not yet believe, they must take the word other people that this is the case. Up to the point of believing, the writings are merely that of other people long dead. People are often mistaken.

2. Many believers will tell you that an individual must first seek God before he will reveal himself. So, you have to trust people teaching you the writings of long dead people before God will reveal himself. Why shouldn’t a person expect this “revelation” before trusting the words and writings of other people?

3. Isn’t it a strong logical possibility that the believers in the first case (those being taught, then having a mystical experience) have been influenced by people teaching the writings of people long dead into believing they’ve had mystical experiences? The power of suggestion is very strong, especially when it comes to something as powerful as religious beliefs.

4. Isn’t it intellectually dishonest to simply accept the teachings of other people about the writings of people long dead without any rational proof?

bgponder

Dear Doug:

I generally agree with you except that your possibilities list is a bit too compartmentalized, in that it downplays the role of family and social reinforcement in the believer's experience. It is many times justifiable to the truth-seeking believer,(and often the source of great angst, as my past experience has shown me) even if it is not intellectually honest, to submit, accept the Word as infallible and gloss over "difficulties" and contradictions in religious teachings in the name of community and family solidarity. Indeed, such justification goes to the very roots of the structures of specie, tribe and civilization, for good and ill, and I think is particularly apt to be applied in a belief system that puts self-sacrifice on a pedestal.

It's not just a possiblity, but a fact that, at least in one case I know, children were taught how to have "mystical" experiences. My mother-in-law was Pentecostal until her teens, I think, and she often relates the story of how she was "taught" as a child in her church to speak in toungues by saying "Jesus loves me" repeatedly and as fast as possible at the point in the worship service when such things usually happen. If you've ever experienced a fundie charismatic service, you know what I'm talking about--it's usually toward the end of the service, just before the invitation to accept Christ, etc., though this can vary. When her jabber resembled glossalalia enough, she was pronounced as having the Holy Ghost. Interestingly enough, she uses this story as justification for her leaving the Pentecostals and joining the Church of Christ for "true" worship.

Peace and cornbread, Barry