Freethought & Rationalism Archive

krazytamak · 05-10-2002, 02:40 PM

Before modern science, people couldn't explain the cause of diseases and illnesses and so they were naturally believed to be caused by God as a punishment for people who've sinned. This is much is a widely accepted anthropological fact.

Now what happens when you apply this to Christianity. To heal someone was to forgive their sins since it was believed that they were sick because of their sins. Jesus was a medical healer, a doctor, and thus it was believed that he could forgive your sins and save you. How did he heal? Could have made some mixture and given it out... over decades of orally passing the story down, things got exaggerated.

Relevant quotations include, Mark 6:13, Matt 9:1-8; Mark 2:15-17, and the most telling with regards to teh medical assumptions of the time is a church order from 250AD where it says "As a skilful and compassionate physician, heal all such as have wandered in teh ways of sin."- This is in Book 2:20 of the Apostolic Constitution see <a href="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-41.htm#P5323_1937285." target="_blank">http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-41.htm#P5323_1937285.</a> Oh also there is a great quotation in the gnostic Gospel of Philip. "Spiritual love is... lovecovers a multitude of sins."-www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: krazytamak ]

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: krazytamak ]

SLD · 05-10-2002, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krazytamak:
Before modern science, people couldn't explain the cause of diseases and illnesses and so they were naturally believed to be caused by God as a punishment for people who've sinned. This is much is a widely accepted anthropological fact.

Now what happens when you apply this to Christianity. To heal someone was to forgive their sins since it was believed that they were sick because of their sins. Jesus was a medical healer, a doctor, and thus it was believed that he could forgive your sins and save you. How did he heal? Could have made some mixture and given it out... over decades of orally passing the story down, things got exaggerated.

Relevant quotations include, Mark 6:13, Matt 9:1-8; Mark 2:15-17, and the most telling with regards to teh medical assumptions of the time is a church order from 250AD where it says "As a skilful and compassionate physician, heal all such as have wandered in teh ways of sin."- This is in Book 2:20 of the Apostolic Constitution see <a href="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-41.htm#P5323_1937285." target="_blank">http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-41.htm#P5323_1937285.</a> Oh also there is a great quotation in the gnostic Gospel of Philip. "Spiritual love is... lovecovers a multitude of sins."-www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html

OK, so um how does this show that Jesus was the "Savior".

BTW, what exactly does "Savior" mean?

SLD

krazytamak · 05-10-2002, 08:37 PM

he was a medical saviour but because illness was linked to sin back then he was seen as a saviour from sinful damnation. i'm just giving an atheistic explanation of how the saviour myth began. i think it's convincing, was hoping to hear what others thought. i just changed the original title to convey my intent more clearly.

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: krazytamak ]

Marduk · 05-11-2002, 06:35 AM

When Jesus healed the blind guy his buds asked him if the guy was blind because he sinned or because his parents sinned. Jesus said no, he was blind so Jesus could heal him and show the "Glory of God" the sick folk he healed were 'plants'.

cloudyphiz · 05-11-2002, 12:30 PM

spit & dirt... some doctor.
i think i'll stick w/ my
friendly neighborhood ophthalmologist.

-gary

krazytamak · 05-11-2002, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
When Jesus healed the blind guy his buds asked him if the guy was blind because he sinned or because his parents sinned. Jesus said no, he was blind so Jesus could heal him and show the "Glory of God" the sick folk he healed were 'plants'.

On what basis do you conclude that the sick folk he healed were plants? That doesn't make sense to me and sounds unnecessarily far-fetched. Could you provide the citation?

Given your paraphrase of the reason the guy is blind (where in the bible did you get it from?), the premise of jesus' buds' question reveals the assumption of the time that there is a cause-effect link between morality and illness... so i'm not sure i understand what you were trying to show here.

Marduk · 05-12-2002, 02:24 PM

"On what basis do you conclude that the sick folk he healed were plants? That doesn't make sense to me and sounds unnecessarily far-fetched. Could you provide the citation?"

oops, I didn't mean plants as in flora, I meant they were put there on purpose just so Jesus could heal them and show off the Power of God. Like a magician or faith healer 'plants' certain people in the audience to use in his show.
The story is in one or more of the Gospels, not sure of the chapter & verse.
Yes people in those days did believe sickness was punishment for your sins or your parents sins. The expression, a quote from the Bible, "Sins of the fathers" comes to mind and another about how God's punishment will be on the people of Israel for X generations.

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]

Marduk · 05-12-2002, 02:33 PM

Found the verse:

John 9
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

krazytamak · 05-19-2002, 12:25 PM

also i was wondering... if people don't believe a medical origin for the saviour myth, how do you'all think the saviour myth began? are there other believable explanations? as an atheist, i think one of the most interesting things about the bible is seeing it as a puzzle and trying to figure out the secular explanations to it all it's different parts. oh, and by saviour myth i mean the idea that jesus can forgive all your sins.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 05-22-2002, 02:39 PM

Krazy,

Quote:

Originally posted by krazytamak:
Before modern science, people couldn't explain the cause of diseases and illnesses and so they were naturally believed to be caused by God as a punishment for people who've sinned. This is much is a widely accepted anthropological fact.

Now what happens when you apply this to Christianity. To heal someone was to forgive their sins since it was believed that they were sick because of their sins. Jesus was a medical healer, a doctor, and thus it was believed that he could forgive your sins and save you. How did he heal? Could have made some mixture and given it out... over decades of orally passing the story down, things got exaggerated.

Your forgetting an important detail:

There was absolutely no time for a myth of any sort to form.

Less than two years after Jesus death people were already congregating on saturday to worship Christ as God. Morever, the physical resurrection was already an element part of the early Christian creed.

2 years is not enough time for a myth to form.

In addition, within the first decade there were 10,000 Christians...including officials in Roman government.

It's these kinds of facts that obliterate any myth explanation of Christianity.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas ]

05-10-2002, 02:40 PM	#1
krazytamak Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: LA, CA Posts: 26	Medical Origin of the Jesus Saviour Myth Before modern science, people couldn't explain the cause of diseases and illnesses and so they were naturally believed to be caused by God as a punishment for people who've sinned. This is much is a widely accepted anthropological fact. Now what happens when you apply this to Christianity. To heal someone was to forgive their sins since it was believed that they were sick because of their sins. Jesus was a medical healer, a doctor, and thus it was believed that he could forgive your sins and save you. How did he heal? Could have made some mixture and given it out... over decades of orally passing the story down, things got exaggerated. Relevant quotations include, Mark 6:13, Matt 9:1-8; Mark 2:15-17, and the most telling with regards to teh medical assumptions of the time is a church order from 250AD where it says "As a skilful and compassionate physician, heal all such as have wandered in teh ways of sin."- This is in Book 2:20 of the Apostolic Constitution see <a href="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-41.htm#P5323_1937285." target="_blank">http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-41.htm#P5323_1937285.</a> Oh also there is a great quotation in the gnostic Gospel of Philip. "Spiritual love is... lovecovers a multitude of sins."-www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html [ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: krazytamak ] [ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: krazytamak ]</p>

05-10-2002, 08:37 PM	#3
krazytamak Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: LA, CA Posts: 26	he was a medical saviour but because illness was linked to sin back then he was seen as a saviour from sinful damnation. i'm just giving an atheistic explanation of how the saviour myth began. i think it's convincing, was hoping to hear what others thought. i just changed the original title to convey my intent more clearly. [ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: krazytamak ]</p>

05-12-2002, 02:24 PM	#7
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"On what basis do you conclude that the sick folk he healed were plants? That doesn't make sense to me and sounds unnecessarily far-fetched. Could you provide the citation?" oops, I didn't mean plants as in flora, I meant they were put there on purpose just so Jesus could heal them and show off the Power of God. Like a magician or faith healer 'plants' certain people in the audience to use in his show. The story is in one or more of the Gospels, not sure of the chapter & verse. Yes people in those days did believe sickness was punishment for your sins or your parents sins. The expression, a quote from the Bible, "Sins of the fathers" comes to mind and another about how God's punishment will be on the people of Israel for X generations. [ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>

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05-11-2002, 06:35 AM	#4
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	When Jesus healed the blind guy his buds asked him if the guy was blind because he sinned or because his parents sinned. Jesus said no, he was blind so Jesus could heal him and show the "Glory of God" the sick folk he healed were 'plants'.

05-11-2002, 12:30 PM	#5
cloudyphiz Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: rochester, ny, usa Posts: 658	spit & dirt... some doctor. i think i'll stick w/ my friendly neighborhood ophthalmologist. -gary

05-12-2002, 02:33 PM	#8
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Found the verse: John 9 1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

05-19-2002, 12:25 PM	#9
krazytamak Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: LA, CA Posts: 26	also i was wondering... if people don't believe a medical origin for the saviour myth, how do you'all think the saviour myth began? are there other believable explanations? as an atheist, i think one of the most interesting things about the bible is seeing it as a puzzle and trying to figure out the secular explanations to it all it's different parts. oh, and by saviour myth i mean the idea that jesus can forgive all your sins.

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