southernhybrid

That minister does sound like Infidel member Rev. Joshua. He joined a group of Atlanta Infidels last November for a little socializing. I have a lot of respect for him and people like him.

I think many things in life are not so black and white. He probably feels that his church involvement has more positives than negatives. I live in a community with a very large number of liberal Methodists and they do a lot of community charity work, so I'm not one to criticize them. I don't think that beliefs are nearly as important as what one does with those beliefs.

It sounds like you have found someone who will be able to be supportive to both of you and remain objective while giving you guidance for how to improve the quality of your marraige. That's the best news I've heard since you started this thread. I'm honestly optimistic for you and your wife.

Hope you enjoy moderating the humor forum.

Splat

Congratulations Darren. Looks like you've found somebody who both of you can talk and listen to.

I've almost always had better luck with clergy than their flocks, and hoped you'd find a good one.

You might find this insightful and amusing:

http://blogs.salon.com/0001772/

openeyes

brettc saidIt does seem to make our lives that much more difficult when the people preaching really don't believe in their words. It just feeds into that non-examined belief system so many people have. Sigh....

It's too bad we can't have some sort of general atheist "coming out of the closet day" and allow everyone to be honest! When believers see that the world doesn't fall apart, we atheists wouldn't be so feared.

Janaya

Hey Vicar,

I just had a few questions, more out of curiousty than anything else.

1. You said you left your guitar out in the snow and left it there on purpose to let your wife 'explain it'. So did you? How did your wife explain this to your children? I would think that being confronted with the need to exlain to the children that she would see that her actions were a bit wierd? Anyway I would be curious to know how she explained this. It is totally cool if you brought your guitar in to cover for her, I've done that myself. But I am still curious at this particular outcome.

2. I find it extemely ironic that the pastor that your wife counted on to convert you actually agrees more with you than with her. I laughed out loud when I read that. Sorry. Did you discuss your wife's beliefs with this pastor and what did he say?

3. Along the same lines as 2, did you discuss your wife's behavior with the pastor? What was his response?

4. How do you feel today? I really think that if your wife cuts her hours, gets plenty of sleep, gets a good diet, and agrees to see a physician for the stress that things are indeed looking up. But how do you feel? The past few months I am sure have been quite stessfull. Consider seeing a therapist/MD for your own good as well. So, how is your outlook today?

As always...peace,
Janaya

Vicar Philip

Janaya:
Yes, I did leave it out there. I wasn't there when she talked to the boys, but she told them she was wrong for what she did, and that was not the right way to express her anger. Plus she apologized to me several times. My oldest daughter (8) only asked about it once, and I said she'd have to ask her mom. I don't think it crossed her mind again once she saw us make up (plus she's a blond.... JUST KIDDING!! but she is a blond). I was satisfied with her explanation to the kids.Yes, we discussed her beliefs. He told me that some people are very reluctant, even scared, to give up their belief in a personal, micro-managing god. They have never even considered thinking otherwise, and may never be able to do so. So I'm not sure what he's going to tell her at our meeting.I didn't really go into that too much, but just told him it got pretty ugly. Quite honestly, after he told me he, too, was a non-theist, I was flabbergasted. We spent the remainder of our time discussing all the ridiculous claims and injurious beliefs of fundamentalist Christianity. I imagine we'll discuss her behavior a little at our next meeting.Janaya, I feel GREAT! Talking to our former pastor was the biggest shot in the arm I could have hoped for. He reinforced everything I believe (or don't believe, however you want to look at it) about religion, and made me use my brain throughout our discussion. The man is brilliant, something I already knew. I love my wife more than ever, and I think she feels better that I went to talk to the pastor, even though she doesn't know quite what to think about our talk.

The two problems I now face are,[list=1][*]How will my wife react to what the pastor will tell her (I'm not even sure how deep into this he wants to go), and[*]How much will she let me tell the kids about these ideas?[/list=1]I should have the answers to these questions after our meeting on the 28th.

I will tell you, though, the future is looking much better than I had ever hoped.

Blesserize you.

HelenM

Great!

Are you going to try to get the pastor to tell your wife that he's a nontheist, next week? Was he intending that information for 'your ears only'?

Anyway, I hope he says some helpful things to the two of you next week. And I hope you have a good weekend!

Helen

BadBadBad

No kidding. What do you say to that?

Hey to all you guys I've been arguing with about christian counselling, sign me up.

beth

Wow! It looks like things are turning around for you. I'm glad.

David Bowden

Vicar, I am just now finally getting around to reading your thread (and sheesh it's a doozie!) -- and this point just made my heart skip a beat.

First of all - great!! I hope this connection leads to positive developments for your family.

Second - I may be acquainted with this individual. May I ask who is the nontheist Methodist pastor you're speaking of? If it's a thing where his/her name shouldn't be publicly revealed (and I can sure imagine this being the case), please PM me. I will keep his name to myself.

My wife and I occassionally attended a Methodist church here in C-U until shortly before we "deconverted," and we always felt like there was something the pastor wasn't quite saying, out of a desire not to seem too radical to the traditional members. Books like Spong's as well as other post-theist liberals sometimes got mentioned, if not directly from the pulpit then in the adult Bible Study class descriptions in the church bulletin.

(This may be a common feature in Methodist churches now; for me, having an evangelical background, it was a bit shocking to see liberal theologians treated with anything except misunderstanding and contempt.)

Ultimately we were bothered by this sense that he was just masking his unbelief in Christian language; we felt it was better (more honest) just to declare ourselves "not Christians anymore" rather than redefine all the Christian language esoterically just to keep up appearances. So we stopped attending altogether, but I've often wondered if I should have kept going, long enough to where I could talk to him about it. He's a very nice, very well-educated guy and has a good sense of humor.

Anyhoo, despite my distaste for nontheists wearing sheeps' clothing (and making a decent living at it), I had considerably more respect for him than I had for the evangelical pastors whose churches we attended in this area, and every now and then I still bump into him and we exchange pleasantries. It would be cool just to know, privately, whether or not this person is indeed as "liberal" as I've always suspected. If this isn't the same pastor, then there must a bunch of 'em in the Methodist denomination, at least in this area.

They should get some fair exercise as you begin to wrap your head around the ideas. I for one sure don't think that the post-theist "Christian" God exists, despite its being less absurd than the traditional version. But thinking about it should be good healthy mind-exercise.

If I were approaching it now, I might ask, What attributes are being given to this new God? (Personality? Will? Etc.) Where did the sure knowledge of these attributes come from? What does this god do? How does anyone know these actions and attributes actually characterize a real being? And does this new concept of god really make more sense than the notion of a universe without any gods?

If an apologist managed to blow away all my doubts in these areas, and if I brought the arguments here and our cadre of infidels couldn't demonstrate any flaws in the new god, then I'd have to swing at least a little less atheistically agnostic. Having read some Spong, Cuppitt, Haught and other apologists for a post-theist Xtianity, however, I'm not persuaded that such a being is necessary or even makes much sense. The Urbana library has a few books by these new arch-liberal theologians, if you wanted to check them out, and I'm sure the pastor you're talking to could recommend some that he's read. I can't imagine anyone who's actually breathed the fresh air of atheism going for this upgraded deity; it strikes me as an intellectually rigorous excuse to hold onto the familiar forms and rituals, and perhaps a hope for eternal happiness.

That's my (longwinded - it's late and I should be in bed; sue me!)$0.02 anyway. Holy cow, what a roller-coaster ride you've been on, Vicar! Once again I hope that this turn of events leads to hyperbolically good things in your family situation.

-David

Proxima Centauri

I suggest you say nothing to your wife about the pastor beingt a nontheist. She'll run screaming back to a fundy church and fundy beliefs.