LOL! No, 'The Wicker Man' does not even come close. Hopefully I can shed some light on things.

The answer to 'what goes on at coven meetings?' is really 'it depends'. Wicca (as a subset of the much larger neo-Pagan movement) is really quite diverse. The ceremonies of the 'original' form of Wicca as put forth by Gerald Gardner draws heavily from the ceremony and rituals of Freemasonry. However, most of the multitude of derivative forms follow this basic outline for ritual format:

1) There is some ceremonial acknowledgment of the four cardinal directions (East, South, West, and North). Usually this also includes ritually forming a circle around the gathered group to symbolically establish the worship space as sacred and distinct from 'every day life'. This opening is almost identical to the opening ritual for Freemason meetings. This Wiccan opening may be very simple, highly structured and ceremonial, or somewhere in between.

2) Some sort of consciousness altering activity is performed by the group: meditation, chanting, ecstatic dance, drumming, etc. or combination thereof. This consciousness altering activity is often done with the purpose of illiciting or encouraging personal change or growth in the coveners. Other times it may be for the purpose of stress relief or greater awareness of the individuals' place in the natural world or to symbolically explore common human emotions and experiences.

3) Sometimes a communal meal is then shared between the coveners.

4) #1 above is performed 'in reverse' to symbolically transition from a 'sacred' space mindset to a 'every day' space mindset.

As you can see, the basic ritual is experiential and participatory. There are no sermons, lessons, lectures, teachings, readings, etc. common to Christian worship services. However, teaching and learning activities may occur outside of the ritual activities. Wicca, in general, is highly individualistic and coven groups often do not exceed a dozen people. The bulk of Wiccan practitioners worship alone or in groups of 2-4. A very few informal groups exist of 100+ people. Since the ritual format is not conducive to large numbers of people, these large gatherings more closely resemble a Woodstock 'peace, love, and empathy' sort of unstructured gathering.

Wiccan groups tend to meet weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly. Often the meetings are timed to follow the moon phases, with the bi-weekly meetings on or near the full and new moons, or the monthly meetings on or near the full moon. There are also 8 "holy day" in the Wiccan liturgical calendar that may be celebrated with the above ritual tailored to a mythological cycle corresponding the the change in seasons. Four of these holidays correspond to the winter and summer solstices and the spring and fall equinoxes. The other four days are borrowed from Celtic (especially Irish) folk holidays that fall roughly half way between the four solar based holidays. Derivative forms of these Celtic folk holidays are practiced in American culture as Groundhog Day, May Day, and Halloween. The fourth holiday has no modern American equivalent; called 'Lughnasadh' in Old Irish it falls in early August following the grain harvest and was something of a 'county fair' type celebration. The selection of these meeting times are used to increase the participants' awareness of the naturally occuring cycles of nature.

Hopefully this is a start. I'll save the description of the varied derivative forms of Wicca for another post. Most of these forms grew from the cross-pollination of Wicca with the American feminist movement and the Environmentalist movement.

Stryder


[This message has been edited by stryder2112 (edited April 13, 2001).]

Wicca is a 20th century invention. A cobbling together of several different things by Gardner. Some of the things that he used to make Wicca are rather old. But the notion of an ancient, unified Goddess-oriented region, surviving intact to the present day is totally specious.

Wicca has many different branches, the big ones being Gardnerian, Alexandrian, McFarland Dianic and American Tradition of the Goddess (AmTrad). There's also Faery Wicca, and countless others.

The Reclaiming Collective is nominally Wiccan, but they seem to use it to mean Witch and are quite different in structure, practices and philosophy from the majority of groups that identify as Wiccan.

There are actually some Wiccans who feel that homosexuality is 'wrong' because the divine is represented by the Lord and the Lady who are the blueprint for all of humanity and thus homosexuality deviates from this. Not a popular view now, but I still run into references to it.

When I went to the Goddess Rising Celebration a couple of years ago we had a Tradition Sharing hour. In a group of approximately 200 women we had over 5 different organized groups, and then a ton of solitaries that didn't fit in with any of the specific traditions.

Caly

One of the best books on the history of Wicca and the different arguements for it's origins is Margot Adlers, Drawing Down The Moon.

Unfortunately, too many people incorrectly interchange the term witch and Wiccan. One can be a practicing Wiccan and not be a witch. Once can be a witch and not a Wiccan, a Wiccan witch, even a Christian Witch despite the obvious contradictions that presents. Wicca is certainly a "new" movement that attempts to create it's spiritual and ritualistic fabric from ancient rites. Gardner and Crowley are responsible for what modern day peoples understand Wicca to be, but I am not entirely convinced that Wicca is a deliberate off spring of either men.

We cannot find a direct link, say - the word Wicca, as we understand it in pagan text, but I would say that something along the lines of what Wiccans believe is certainly not new.

I, personally find Wicca to be too fluffy for my tastes and I say this as one who is a "witch", but not a Wiccan. Although I have studied Wicca extensively. I think those who gravitate toward Wicca do so because there is a built in defense mechanism that what they are doing is not Satanic, and therefore demonic in origin. Because of course everything and anything that has not been sanitized by Christ is filthy and demonic.

Wicca is very diverse and as one can make only a few sweeping statements about the different Christian sects, the same goes for Wiccans. There is no set dogma, no restrictions on ritual, faith or belief. It's more creative and free flowing for those who feel burdened by dogma and still feel the presence of a higher power, whatever way that is individually defined.

I would say it's pretty complex and simple statements such it is this, or it is not that hardly does justice to the depth and diversity of belief in this Earth based religious philosophy.

It is benign and certainly less threatening to independent thought and intellectual growth then other "mainstream" religions, despite the fact it has it fundamental and militant factions, but this is a phenomena called human nature that can be found in EVERY philosophical, religious or scientific community in history.

Brigid

This in itself becomes dogma. As far as I can see from Wiccans I've spoken to at lenght it *is* dogma.

Wiccans don't want to make inconvenient distinctions. Part of good thinking is making distinctions. By being "free flowing" and not
attempting to make distinctions between truth and falsity they tend to allow all sorts of unbelievable things in thier ranks.

Try telling a Wiccan that their statements contain an internal contradiction. My experience is that they will refuse to discuss it, say "well that's your truth", or see you as not being "open minded."

Its less threatening because its powerless.

I think it does threaten independent thought because they don't think. In my experience Wiccans tend to lack critical thinking skills in the same way fundamentalists lack critical thinking skills. Even Christians make an attempt to make their views coherent. Creationists and apologists and the like *are* an attempt to be rational and consistent.

I've seen Wiccans throw off Western medicine for irrational reasons. Are we going to start finding cases where children of Wiccans have to be taken from them because they don't provide medical care?

My experience with Wiccans leads me to believe that they have the same irrational tendencies as fundamentalists except that its aimed at different worldview and it lacks a global intolerance.

DC
http://www.digitalchicken.net

[This message has been edited by DChicken (edited April 24, 2001).]

Thank you for responding and sharing your thoughts and opinions. Hopefully our dialogue will helps us gain a better understanding of the complex issues that come into play in each of our lives.

I would like to start off by asking you a few questions. How many Wiccans have you had religious conversations with? What form of Wicca do they practice? Were they Gardenian, Alexandrian, Dianic, eclectic or another form of Wicca? The answers to those questions are very relevant to how that person views the divine and the world. How many Wiccan books have you read? Any by Starhawk, Crowley, Gardner, Cunningham, Valiente, or Adler to name a few or the more famous authors of Wicca and Witchcraft? What do you know about their belief system? What are the Wiccan tenants, codes of conduct and basic philosophies? These are but a few questions that are necessary in discovering a more accurate picture of this very real religion and those who follow it.

I would say that you may very well have had many interactions with men and women who are indeed Wiccan and/or witches that you had no idea they were because rarely do they identify themselves as such. I can guarantee that you would not know my affiliation by talking to me in the library or walking past me in the super market. Would your interaction and perception of that person be clouded if they identified themselves as such?

I am not asking these questions in an attempt to make any character judgments, but to gauge the reality behind your experience so we can start on common ground and move to higher ground.

I think it is shaky for anyone to formulate an opinion based upon minimal knowledge and interaction with a minute sampling of a diverse population. I certainly support your right to hold whatever opinion it is you deem worthy, but I also encourage you to explore those questions so that you can have a more accurate representation of what Wicca is or is not. It’s much easier to simply say it is not valid, or a bunch of mumbo-jumbo before getting to the facts then it is to validate the very real spiritual and practical application this path holds for many people.

If after a thorough journey of discovery, this belief system holds no value for you, then this conclusion would have been come to in fairness and honesty. This is the best any of us can hope for. But I think that after acquiring a deeper knowledge of this belief system you might find that as a whole, this system is not much different then from that of your own.

Here are the Principles of Wiccan Belief and I hope this helps further your understanding a bit:


The Principles of Wiccan Belief were set down in 1974 by a group called "The Council of American Witches" at a meeting in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The statement, which has far outlived the group, has been reprinted in almost every major book on Wicca, especially AMERICAN Wicca.
"The Council of American Witches finds it necessary to define modern Witchcraft in terms of American experience and needs.
We are not bound by traditions from other times and other cultures, and owe no allegiance to any person or power greater than the Divinity manifest through our own being.
As American Witches, we welcome and respect all life-affirming teachings and traditions, and seek to learn from all and to share our learning within our Council.
It is in this spirit of welcome and cooperation that we adopt these few principles of Wiccan belief. In seeking to be inclusive, we do not wish to open ourselves to the destruction of our group by those on self-serving power trips, or to philosophies and practices contradictory to these principles. In seeking to exclude those whose ways are contradictory to ours, we do not want to deny participation with us to any who are sincerely interested in our knowledge and beliefs, regardless of race, color, sex, age, national or cultural origins, or sexual preference.
We therefore ask only that those who seek to identify with us accept these few basic principles:
1. We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythm of life forces marked by the phases of the Moon and the seasonal quarters and cross- quarters.
2. We recognize that our intelligence gives us a unique responsibility toward our environment. We seek to live in harmony with Nature, in ecological balance offering fulfillment to life and consciousness within an evolutionary concept.
3. We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than is apparent to the average person. Because it is far greater than ordinary, it is sometimes called "supernatural," but we see it as lying within that which is naturally potential to all.
4. We conceive of the Creative Power in the Universe as manifesting through polarity - as masculine and feminine - and that this same creative Power lives in all people, and functions through the interaction of the masculine and feminine. We value neither above the other, knowing each to be supportive of the other. We value sexuality as pleasure, as the symbol and embodiment of Life, and as one of the sources of energies used in Magickal practice and religious worship.
5. We recognize both outer worlds and inner, or psychological worlds - sometimes known as the Spiritual World, the Collective Unconscious, the Inner Planes, etc. - and we see in the interaction of these two dimensions the basis for paranormal phenomenon and Magickal exercises. We neglect neither dimension for the other, seeing both as necessary for our fulfillment.
6. We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership.
7. We see religion, Magick, and wisdom-in-living as being united in the way one views the world and live within it - a world view and a philosophy of life, which we identify as Witchcraft or the Wiccan Way.
8. Calling oneself "Witch" does not make a Witch - but neither does heredity itself, or the collecting of titles, degrees, and initiations. A Witch seeks to control the forces within him/herself that make life possible in order to live wisely and well, without harm to others, and in harmony with Nature.
9. We acknowledge that it is the affirmation and fulfillment of life, in a continuation of evolution and development of consciousness, that gives meaning to the Universe we know, and to our personal role within it.
10. Our only animosity toward Christianity, or toward any other religion or philosophy-of-life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "the one true right and only way" and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practices and belief.
11. As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the Craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions. We are concerned with our present, and our future.
12. We do not accept the concept of "absolute evil," nor do we worship any entity known as "Satan" or "the Devil" as defined by Christian tradition. We do not seek power through the suffering of others, nor do we accept the concept that personal benefits can only be derived by denial to another.
13. We work within Nature for that which is contributory to our health and well-being.

Brighid

uh ok...

I was attended a pagan center where I live (which was mainly Wiccan) for the sole purpose of checking them out. I can say I've met hundreds of Wiccans, pagans and neo-pagans of all sorts.

So? This doesn't make any difference. The general attitude amongst Wiccans is that they tend to purposefully avoid critical thinking. I see this as a general tendency. Thus, one or two exceptions isn't going to change this. A general tendency is just that: a general tendency. If I see a few hundred engaging in explicit critical thinking then I'll change my mind.

Check out *ANY* Wiccan literatue on the net including the principles you listed. It doesn't take you long to find inarguable conjecture, beliefs which must be taken on faith, and claims for which there is no evidence.

Further, such literature doesn't tell you anything about the culture. If the culture discourages critical thinking then I doubt its going to be written down anywhere. Many Chrsitian sects (but not all) have cultures which discourage critical thinking. However, I don't see this principle written anywhere. Its a result of culture. Thus, stating Wiccans principles doesn't mean anything because it doesn't say anything about the culture.

DC
http://www.digitalchicken.net

[This message has been edited by DChicken (edited April 25, 2001).]

Again, thank you kindly for sharing your experience and opinions! You have stated that the general tendency among Wiccans, meaning the entire movement of potentially millions of American and international practitioners, is as you have experienced. Again, your experience with this one group of hundreds in a single community is only a microcosm in the diversity of this or any religion. I was raised as a Roman Catholic and for a long time thought that all Catholics believed as I was taught to believe. Then, as I went out and experienced other Roman Catholic and other Catholic communities I found that to not be true. As a young woman that was very difficult for me to grasp hold of as I assumed that we were all taught the same way, and therefore believed the same way. I was incorrect and had to reevaluate how I viewed this community and many others. It taught me that my purposes are better served by judging the individual and not an entire culture that I may have improperly lumped all into one sum.

I am merely suggesting that the statements of the general tendency of THE Wiccan population is such … is incorrect, but rather a more accurate statement of your experience would be “the general tendency of the Wiccan/neo-pagan population I have encountered is such…” leaving open the very real possibility that others are not identical to this group.

My experience in the neo-pagan, Wiccan, witchcraft movement has been the exact opposite of your own. In fact, most of the members of this community I have encountered are very much critical thinkers, but have experienced things that lead them to believe that there is more to this world than meets the eye. The find that Abrahamic faiths leave much to be desired and need to be able to incorporate many wisdoms and truths into their spiritual belief systems. Many are involved in quantum physics, mathematics and other sciences but yearn for a deeper connection with what they feel in a Universal Consciousness. I know a man who is a brilliant mathematician (and a pagan witch) and my conversations with him leave me dizzy as I am not as astute in the realm of numbers.

Wicca/and of witchcraft has a set of beliefs and rules, but they are not imposed upon the masses of those who follow it. They are simply guidelines and each person is allowed to follow a path of their own making. Some coven and organizations feel they must adhere strictly to guidelines and ideas set down by certain individuals and many of those concepts are really no different from Christianity (although Christianity was nothing new at the time and borrowed much from the pagans of the time). But a single group or even a number of groups and their beliefs and ways does not speak for the entirety of this movement, or any other movement. It simply is the basis for that group alone and others may or may not emulate it.

I certainly agree with you that some aspects of Wicca do require an aspect of faith and there are many things that simply don’t sit well with me, as an individual. But I don’t feel bound by those things, nor should any educated Wiccan. Wicca is suppose to be about freedom of expression and worship, and basically it is. That also means that Wiccans can be as strict or a loose in their guidelines as they wish to be.

I don’t believe in individual gods as separate entities floating about affecting my life. I believe in a universal energy of sorts and that the images and ideas behind the gods are merely archetypes that the human mind has created in order to relate to something they don’t yet understand. I know that human kind has hardly touched the tip of understanding the universe or even the human body, even though we have made great strides in technology and all the sciences. I believe that one day science will be able to answer all the questions I have about the universe and then some, but as it is today it cannot explain many of my own personal experiences. I am a heretic, a pagan if you wish and I certainly do my best to use my critical thinking skills to learn more about everything around me. I am far from perfect, or even a genius, but I am intelligent and do the best with the gifts I do have. I humbly submit to those minds who are greater then my own, and do my best to test all things in the best light of reason, keeping what I find fits, discarding what does not and keeping open to the possibility that I may find new information that debunks the old.

Some people need the disciplined routine of an organized religion and many feel imprisoned by it, like myself for example. Therefore, it's not an anomoly that such mannerisms would find there way into this movement as well. Critical thinking is no more absent from the pagan movement then intelligence is absent from the African American peoples. If we could start from a common ground on this debate I feel we could make some headway. Could you please provide me with specific examples of Wiccan belief or practice that you have found the most difficulty with and maybe I can shed some light on those things, not in an attempt to change more mind but simply provide you with a different perspective. Maybe we can start with the 13 principles I have outlined and you can detail for me what in those principles discourages critical thinking? If those aren’t sufficient, please share those things you do find to discourage critical thinking.

Brighid

This right here shows a lack of critical thinking and lack of understanding of statisitical thinking.

If hundreds of encounters and time reading literature with NO counter examples isn't enough to make a statistical inference then I guess that nothing will.

You have to understand that this pagan center is sort of a clearing house. Its not just a single minded Wiccan group. Its a diverse group representing many beliefs from Wiccan to neo-pagan.

Further, I've subsribed to e-mail lists and it reflects my opinion as formed through personal encounters. What am I supposed to conclude? That there is a mass of logical and rational freethinking Wiccans hiding from me. It strains credulity to believe this.

My experience is different. Please point me to evidence of this. You are implying that these critical freethinking Wiccans are hidden amongst us.

I have a degree in Physics.

Their misuses and lack of understanding of these subjects is a problem I have with them. I never met one that had any understanding in QM yet they go on about "many universes" and
"wave-particle duality".

You forgot to mention Chaos Theory. That is another subject they abuse on a frequent basis.

so? I know Jewish, atheist, and Christian mathematicians. This proves nothing.

I don't have time to deal with the rest.

DC
http://www.digitalchicken.net

[This message has been edited by DChicken (edited April 25, 2001).]

**moderator cap off**

Now now, kiddies, play nice...

Brighid: welcome to the boards. I hope that you stay.

DChicken: you say: Let me tell you this: there is a mass of logical and rational freethinking Wiccans hiding from the rest of the Wiccans. They generally pretend to be Unitartian or atheist or protestant or Catholic or something else when pressed. I know it sounds unbelieveable. But one could almost say that 'any pagan who goes to a pagan centre' is not a true pagan... but then one would be shot at with 'no true scotsman,'... wouldn't one?

The Traditional Wiccan laws include secrecy. Anyone not 'secret' about their religion is more in likely a Wiccan (tm), not a Traditional Wiccan.

I am really interested in what goes on at your local 'pagan centre'--- could you tell us?

My experience with Wiccans(tm) is that a great deal of them are fluffy bunnie new agers who have no clue and are really Christians going through a stage. A Strega friend of mine asks wiccans 'do you fear your gods?'--- and if they say something along what 80% of them say ('oh no! The god and goddess are sweet little creatures who only want to be nice to us!') he discounts them. Same can be said for fairies. Find me a true pagan who thinks faires are tinkerbell, and I will find you a true Christian who says that it doesn't matter if Christ was resurrected--- it's the thought that counts...

A few questions:
No set dogma is a dogma? Could you please expalin this one to me? I am sincere here, no sarcasm for you to wipe off your shoes...

Their line of 'unbelievable' is different from yours... and mine. I think the tendancy to not make distinctions between false and true is more a result of an imperfect understanding of metaphysics than of a lack of intellegence...

I agree. I would be just as scared of them as the fundies, if they got power. I think I said that above, but it bears repeating. However, the traditional groups are not as frightening...


My gut instinct is no... and that the people who have are insane (you can be insane and be a pagan ). Paganism and Wicca both expect you to rely on yourself for help--- and, by extension, on mankind. A pagan/wiccan who is ill will, to the best of his/her ability, use both medicine and prayer. I know of some pagans who will use herbal medicine first (myself included, depending on the problem) or as a last resort. I also know some pagans who are too poor to afford medical care and thus have no choice.

I think that is more than I have met--- unless you are counting virtual people?

Of course... There is faith involved here... If it were a perfectly rational religion, it would be agnosticiam... or possibly Satanism... Is it the claim that people have had a personal experience which makes the religion and beliefs 'real' for them that bothers you? As opposed to the similar Christian idea, which is post scripted with a 'now I will change your life'?

Good point--- it is not in the tenants to discourage intellegence as it is in the Bible... However, I do not think you can completely throw out tenants written by the people in 1974 as opposed to dictates from 'god' 2500 years ago... The fact is 'any girl with a henna tattoo and a spice rack thinks she has a direct line to the Old Ones'--- and to someone outside the religion, she is just as legitimate as a hereditary 'true' follower. And she has just as much of a right to call herself Wiccan. And I have just as much of a right to snicker at her.

(is it me, or is this beginning to sound a bit like Nomad's arguements about people who call themselves 'Christians' verses people who are?)

Lies, damned lies and statistics...
I think the question is, are your hundreds of encounters with a homogeneous population? The same type of follower? The same branch of the religion? Is your literature diverse, or is it all Gimbautis and Llewellyn? Perhaps we can examine the evidence and see if it holds more weight than we think it does, or if it is less substantial than you do.

If you have the time, this should be fun...

How convenient of you not to quote the entire exchange.

Of course if there is "no belief" then they are saying nothing. They have a dogma where "no dogma" means "do not tolerate distinctions." Its not "Wicca Kosher" to point out logical contradictions and sloppy reasoning. They will respond as I noted perviously. In fact you did similarly in your message.

I have discussed why the population of Wiccans, pagans and neo-pagans I have encountered is diverse. Please re-read my messages.

This business of "different sects believe differently" doesn't hold water. Just as all Chrsitians except for an almost non-existent few regard Jesus ressurection as true, Wiccans do not differ enough to use that as a cover.

DC
http://www.digitalchicken.net