SergeyS

Please Note: I have split this out from David's other thread here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=56059
AspenMama, SL & S Moderator


First, religion isn't equivalent to belief in God/gods. Second, I completely disagree with this sentiment. Religion can sometimes be very enlightening and bring about accumulation of new knowledge and have positive affects on people's lives and society as a whole.

Of course, as for anything else, there's another side of the coin.

Sergey

David M. Payne

[quote] Originally posted by David M. Payne
God and religion, the oldest scam in the world, and it still sucks them in today!

Well Sergey, see 9/11, Waco, Jonestown, and farther back the Crusades etc for what is wrong with the God/religion biz. When I say it, I'm putting the two together as a unit. I know that there are many religions that don't have the overwhelming God connection and the authoritarianism that goes with it and I have no problem with them, but I oppose all that do, and for good reason. (See 9/11 etc) In one sense the big problem with "good" people that believe in God, is that they serve as a reservoir that will allow those that would give us 9/11 etc. to eternally spring forth. We need to end that cycle some day or we will continually see this result. (9/11 etc) That’s why I wrote This, among other things. All I can do is use my mind and my imagination to help free as many people as I can from the grasp of this God/religion authoritarian dogma.

David

God and religion, the oldest scam in the world, and it still sucks them in today!

CX

Come off it. Are you suggesting that a religion free world would have none of the conflict and social problems we see throughout history? That's nonsense. People will subjugate eachother, commit atrocities, and so on regardless of their metaphysics. Certainly religion is a good patsy for justifying such action, but there are plenty of others and people would use whatever was handy if religion wasn't available. We're animals with the shiny veneer of culture and civilization. To say that religion is responsible for all this is as absurd as the Xian theist who imagines a perfect utopian theocracy where everyone embraces and obeys god's love and law and all social problems (which are the fault of secularism and godlessness) disappear.

Biff the unclean

Religion can sometimes be very enlightening and bring about accumulation of new knowledge and have positive affects on people's lives and society as a whole.

I don't agree…not in the least.
The knowledge it brings isn't actual knowledge. It's just an accumulation of fictions.
And what positive affects does it have on people's lives?
It doesn't supply morals that are any better than Atheists morals. The only fears it conquers are the very same fears that it instills.
The comfort it gives is baseless. And as Atheists cope in hard times as well as Theists do, it is obviously superfluous.
The ages that religion reigned supreme in our culture was the exact same period that our society as a whole was at it's lowest point.

religion isn't equivalent to belief in God/gods
God is the scam that sharpies are pulling. Religion is how they are profiting by this scam.

SLD

The problem isn't religion per se. It's organized religion. Once it gets organized it requires dogma and dogma requires discipline and ultimately repression.

But the same can be said for organized atheism. I don't believe in any organized religion. The myth that we must battle is that we all must think alike. That is the source of repression whether it be from religion, atheism, communism or George Bushism. It is hubris to think that we can better the world if only everybody would think just like me.

SLD

Biff the unclean

The whole point is to get money/power. That's the point to every scam from three card Monty to the Vatican.
If your religion isn't organized you've still fallen for the scam. You have still swallowed the bait. You just aren't parting with your dough.
There's another type of scam artist of the Elmer Gantry ilk that you find in tents, on TV, but mostly on the radio. They target these non-denominational John's as their patsies.

David M. Payne

I don't have anything to come off of CX, I can defend my point of view. Is religion responsible for all social problems throughout history? I never said that, I said that religion is responsible for that done in its name! It offers a perfect vehicle for those that want to exert their will over other people, as I stated pretty clearly in one of my stories in the link above. Your argument would seem to say that if one sees five people getting mugged and you could only stop one of them, you would throw up your hands and walk away because you couldn’t stop all of them at the same time. That’s not the path I would take, I'd do the best I could to stop what I could. Humanity is being mugged by some religious fanatics, and has been getting mugged off and on for all of our recorded history. I'm doing what I can to help stop this stupidity, and so are a lot of the people who post here. And if enough people use resources like the Sec-Web to follow that path, who knows what can be accomplished? You seem to be setting some arbitrary limits on what good can be accomplished by these endeavors, I don't.

One has to work on what one can. Nobody can end all the conflict in the world, humanity is too contentious for that, but we shouldn’t have to put up with those conflicts that are based on religious dogma that is in turn based on fairy tales! How senseless is that? In addition, as I've argued in a few of my tales, essays and threads, these religious conflicts have the potential to destroy all of humanity in some apocalyptical battle of Armageddon. I have more than just the desire to see my name in print with my work, (Almost every writer has that desire.) I fully intend to put out the best arguments I can for my point of view, the humanist, metaphysical naturalist view, and hope it will have some positive influence somewhere. I do the best I can with the resources I have to make the world a better place for us all. I do that because after my experiences in Vietnam, I'm compelled to do that. Some people understand why I'm coming from where I'm coming from, some don't. Oh well.

Think of Jim Jones or Osama bin Laden with biological weapons capable of killing everyone in the world. If they thought God was telling them to do it, they would. I mean those types of guys think God is on their side and supporting whatever they do, and the worst that will happen if they get their way, is we will all get to heaven or hell a little sooner. Only authoritarian religious dogmas have the power to influence people to do such stupid things in the name of God/religion.

And I'm just as troubled by the secular authoritarian dogma used to incite conflict and commit mass murder in the name of Marx and Hitler etc, and that should be clear to anyone that reads my work, esp. the link above. We need to outgrow these bronze age religious relic's that still sow so much misery around the world, if not more. And we need to bring an end to the allure of the secular authoritarian dogmas that can be used the same way that the God/religion biz is used to control people. If we can be successful in that, then it is a little easier to tackle the other problems, like over population, economic inequity and the rest of the societal problems we face as a species. There is no easy path to the end of the problems that plague humanity, but that doesn’t mean that there is no path to follow. I think we just haven't found it yet.

You seem to argue that we are just smart animals with shinny veneers, and we are incapable of ending this cycle of multiple conflicts and wars that will inevitability destroy our world. I disagree with that assessment. I like to think humanity can do better than that, if we can find our way down the right path. I look at history and see not only the bad, but also the good that humanity has done over time. I won't limit my imagination as to what we can do to improve the human condition, others may chose to take a different path.

I think that the internet and sites like the Sec-Web can help greatly in that endeavor by making so much uncensored information available around the world to millions of people that counters the dogma that those that favor authoritarian regimes, religious or secular, use to foist their beliefs on the rest of us. Nothing will happen soon, but who knows what we may be able to accomplish if we try. One thing for sure, the fastest path to failure is to not try to succeed at all.

And lastly, though I write fanciful tales, that doesn’t mean that I believe in them. Take the idea of Utopia for instance, nice goal to strive for, but IMHO it isn't really attainable any time soon by humanity in our present state of social and intellectual development, if it ever is. Still the dream of social perfection is a good one, and can serve as a goal to strive for. At least we head in the right direction that way, even if we never get all the way there as a species.

David

David M. Payne

nicely said Biff, though I tend to think the two go together.

David

David M. Payne

I think Biff hit the nail on the head pretty well in his reply to this, but I'd add that it is indeed hubris for one person to think they have the plan that will solve all of humanities problems. No one is that smart. But if enough smart people do a good enough job, collectively they might just come up with the plan that does. We have social problems that threaten us as a species, any solution must be broadly based, and democratically enacted to be successful. And it certainly won't be achieved easily, will it?

As for organized atheism, judging by what goes on around here, that may be a dream that is even farther away than Utopia is.

David