Marguerite

I have a friend who says the Bible does not contradict itself. I need some good examples of how it does. Thanks.

Marguerite

Javaman

I know of three offhand, <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/bible.html" target="_blank">The Argument From the Bible</a>, <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html" target="_blank">Biblical Inconsistencies</a>, and <a href="http://www.atheists.org/church/contradictions.html" target="_blank">BIBLICAL CONTRADICTIONS</a>... but I'm sure others here have more.

Edited to fix URL

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Javaman ]</p>

The Admiral

Marguerete;

Working from the KJV. Point your friend to Genesis 1 and have him/her read the creation story therein. Then goto Genesis 2 and read the creation story there. If that person can then maintain that there is no contradiction between the two you might as well give up and talk about the weather. These two stories were obviously written by different people at different times. You will, if you search, find mountains of data beyond this. You will also find many more knowlegable people than myself who can help you in the quest. Don't give up. Pursue "The Impossible Dream", a world free from superstition.

The Admiral

Vorkosigan

Dennis McKinsey's site, <a href="http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html" target="_blank">Biblical Errancy</a> is a magazine devoted entirely to this, and is extremely exhaustive. He also answers his critics' books, which means he rebuts their counterarguments.

<a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com" target="_blank">The Skeptic's Annotated Bible</a> has some great info too.

And Till's <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/index.shtml" target="_blank">The Skeptical Review</a> should not be missed.

Vorkosigan

Darkside_Spirit

A good "quickie" is the contradictory genealogies at the beginning of Matthew and Luke. They disagree on all but two names--not only are they irreconcilable, but they are also highly significant to the historicity of Jesus and the reliability of the gospel story.

Beware: many of the Biblical contradictions listed by skeptical sites can be explained. Always check the passages carefully yourself, and think "if I were a Bible believer, how would I defend this?" Unless you can't think of any possible arguments that could be used to reconcile the alleged contradiction, don't use it. Real contradictions do exist, but so do many false ones.

Sojourner553

I agree with you. I have seen very clever responses that try and paper up the real discrepancies.

Still, there are some excellent citations here for contradictions. (In fact I picked up a few from these -- thanks)

My concerns with handing them over, per se, to a general believer are:

* the contradictions are often one-liners, with no context given to explain their historical significance (nor the apologic responses frequently given). Most believers have NO awareness of the political history that went on in the backdrop.

* the authors too often speak in very derogatory terms of belief in general -- which religious readers find offensive and quickly tune out.

One alternative you might want to consider is to look at:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

The scope is obviously too broad for you to just hand over. I would recommend:

(1) the chapter listing how the Christian gospel writers had major conflicts in doctrine between themselves as to the life and meaning of Jesus

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/COMPARIS.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/COMPARIS.TXT</a>

despite what Josh McDowell promises:
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/RESPONSE.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/RESPONSE.TXT</a>


(2) the most glaring gospel contradictions can be found in the chapters analyzing the birth, miracles, and resurrection of Jesus within their historical context.

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/BIRTH.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/BIRTH.TXT</a>
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT</a>
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/APOCALYP.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/APOCALYP.TXT</a>

(3) To me, it was important to know that most of Christian doctrine and stories are "borrowed" from much OLDER Greek mystery religions -- such as Mithraism; and Gnosticism.

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GREEK.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GREEK.TXT</a>
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GREEK3.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GREEK3.TXT</a>
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GNOSIS.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GNOSIS.TXT</a>

(4) Look again at the ethics in the Bible

in the Old Testament:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/ETHICS.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/ETHICS.TXT</a>

plus an analysis of how the Golden rule (by itself) was distorted to actually PROMOTE torture and slavery.

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/ETHICS2.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/ETHICS2.TXT</a>


(5) problems with Genesis

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/SCIENCE.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/SCIENCE.TXT</a> [actually other sources listed here may be easier to follow]

(6) If your friend is not Mormon -- s/he will likely find the Mormon chapter interesting (and it's probably a subject you can both agree on.)

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MORMON.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MORMON.TXT</a>

(7) The religious biographies on Joan London, George Elliot, and Einstein are short.

Thomas Jefferson is also interesting
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/JEFFERSO.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/JEFFERSO.TXT</a>

(8) probably most important:

Do you realize some 99% of people follow the religion of their parents except in times of major disheavel (like a major war in past centuries).

Why are people afraid to question their religion--Answer: Because they do not want to open themselves up to contemplating the the finality of their death. Here is how many atheists have coped:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/PHILOSO3.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/PHILOSO3.TXT</a>

(9) There are of course the abysmal records of how Christian rule was almost always authoritarian and corrupt in previous centuries.

There are a lot of good tapes on this. Section V covers it here.

For a discussion how many western laws we today consider "humane" and "civilized", they can look at:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/ETHICS1.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/ETHICS1.TXT</a>


--------------------------------

Just giving you more options...

It really depends on the individual as to probably which approach you want to take.

Religion is of such vast scope -- you can start with a number of subjects.

Again there are some great sources for contradictions here. I included this only if you wanted some additional background context to go with it and you want less derogatory commentary about Christianity.

Hope I have not intruded on anyone here.

Peter Kirby

Are you sure? I would guess that at least 2% of people switch religious views. Got any statistics?

best,
Peter Kirby

Michael Ledo

I have been down this stupid road many times. It is not worth your time, but I guess we must all experience it for ourselves. Whatever contradiction you can come up with, the Bible fundy will alter meanings, change science, or use some idiotic logic to explain it away. There will be several things to note. There is no consistancy in the rules. One time we must use the original Hebrew meaning of the word, the next time a different meaning assigned by a modern translator. Contridictions are at times called "copyist errors" although originals are never produced, only assumed. Christians are very smug about how many laws of science they can violate to make their Bible perfect, they prefer to use phrases like "true science" and "true Christian" to refer to those which only agree with their narrow minded views. If you go at it long enough, you will find out that their explanations to prove the Bible has no errors will contradict themselves. At this point, the Christian finishes the debate by backing into a corner and screaming "faith" at the top of their lungs to block out any sense of reason or logic. At that point I consider it a victory. I tell them I need more than faith- I need facts.I need proof. The truth does not require faith-only a lie requires faith. When the Christian is all out of BS, that is what it boils down to. They simply can not understand this world without magic they have never witnessed. Then comes the witnessing... Oh how their pathetic lives changed when they started to believe in Jesus etc. etc. At this point I ask, "How do you know it was Jesus and not Buddha?" Well, they just know. They have that feeling, and if you every had it, you would know too (classic cult indoctrination stuff). I inform them that they are selling themselves short. They changed because they wanted to change and all that difference came from within themselves, not from Jesus. At this point we become friends again. While they still believe it was Jesus, they like the fact you see them as a nice person without the fantasy.

Then they leave you the hell alone. I also inform them I am not attempting to convert them. They are not atheist material. It takes a special mind to be an atheist and they don't have it. In fact there are people I would not want to save from Christianity. I wouldn't begin to defend my atheist beliefs to someone who is near death. What is the point? Let them die thinking they are going to Disney World. There are only a few select people I attempt to bring over to my side. The rest can go to hell- so to speak.

Sojourner553

I believe I saw it in an old Free Inquiry issue. (It might have been 98% now that I think of it, though. I probably should have put 98% in just to be on the safe side. Think that's too material a difference? I realize it is DOUBLING the rate that DO convert--from 1 to 2%? Smile)

I assume this also counts CONVERSIONS BETWEEN religions -- not sects within religions (example Baptist to Catholic would not count; I'm not sure if Jewish to atheist counts if the individual still participates in some Jewish holidays/rites). The context was also during normal times, as opposed to the aftermath of a socio-political upheaval such as loosing a major war.

Think about it though -- how many people belong to the religion they were born ... I think it is very revealing.

Radcliffe Emerson

I was born into Protestantism and grew up in it. I got away from it when I moved out on my own and stayed away for years. Then I became into it again and even got somewhat Pentecostal in my thinking. Then I read the bible for myself, the entire thing over a 2.5 year period. I started doubting when I read it for myself and discovered the absolute nonsense in it. Then I started studying the history of both testaments, when the books were actually written, the political times surrounding them, and the evidence (or complete lack of) for the bible that's been discovered through archaelogical excavations in Israel and surrounding areas, and came to the only conclusion I think can be made: It's pure myth.
No truth to it at all. Some of the historical events happened, but the divine-interference, miracles, God in human flesh, etc is pure fiction.
At the time the bible was written it was believed the world was flat, and the bible itself says heaven is right up there in the clouds and hell is underneath the ground. After leaving the planet and going through those heavenly clouds into space, and going deep into the surface of the earth, that is complete foolishness.
So people try to hold onto the divine beliefs by interpreting these things on their own, putting more into the words that are there, which is something that cannot and must not be done if the words are indeed from god. And if they are, every single woman that's working in the world now at a job must quit, sell everything they own and return home. If they are not married they must marry immediately or live alone and poor, as women are considered property in the bible. If a woman is alone and gets raped, it is her fault. Children who disobey their parents must be stoned to death, and you must hate your mother and father and leave them to serve Jesus and Jesus only. If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it away, or it may cause you to go to hell. The Jews were favored and told by God to horribly massacre people to take their lands.
Ridiculous nonsense.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]</p>