Layman

In Romans 1:3, Paul states that Jesus was "descended from David."

That sure sounds like a reference to a human to me. But Doherty argues that "[e]ven some of the pagan savior gods could be said to possess an ethnic lineage." E. Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle, at 99.

I have a few questions.

What are these examples of pagan saviour gods that Doherty is talking about? I check the closest footnotes and found no references (Although I'm only about half-way done with the book).

Is being descended from David the same thing as "ethnic lineage"? As I understand it, the tribe of Judah precedes King David and is greater in scope than being descended from David. It seems we are not talking about ethnic lineage, but familial lineage.

And if we are actually looking for familial lineage, are there examples of "pagan saviour gods" who have expressed about them similar statements to the effect that he was descended from a particular human being who lived at a particular time.

Finally, let's limit these pagan examples to gods that never resided on earth. I'm quite aware that Hercules had a human mother, but he was actually believed to have been a human being (if parly divine). As such, he's hardly an example supporting the idea that Jesus was a purely spiritual being who has never been to earth.

Thanks for the help.

Kosh

Layman, long time no see! Don't feel like talking about the ossuary anymore?

Vorkosigan

I wondered about the funny [e] at the beginning of your cite, so I went directly to the source:

As I recalled Doherty is actually making a somewhat more involved argument:

• "For example, Christ had to be "of David's stock' (Romans 1:3) for the spiritual Son was now equated with the Messiah, and the clear testimony in the scripture that the Messiah would be a descendent of David could neither be ignored nor abandoned. He was thus viewed as possessing a Davidic or Judaic nature (Even some of the pagan savior gods could be said to possess an ethnic lineage)."

In other words, this is not a main argument, but an offhand quote. I agree that Doherty is often guilty of tossing off things without involved explanations, and life would be a lot easier if The Jesus Puzzle were at least 200% longer. But that said, "ethnic lineage" does not, as you claim above, equate to familial lineage. Rather, viewed in the larger perspective, Doherty is noting that gods could be Greek, Babylonian, or Egyptian just as Jesus could be "Jewish" in some vague way.

Toto

What's your authority for claiming that "Hercules . . . was actually believed to have been a human being (if parly divine)"?

The last time I looked into this, as I recall, there was a 19th c. tendency to assume that legendary figures were based on real men, with legendary accretions. So some modern scholars may have speculated that Hercules was based on a real person.

But I don't recall any evidence that the educated Greco-Romans who viewed their own gods as mythical or metaphorical, thought that Hercules had been a real historical person, any more than his father Zeus.

Layman

But Paul is not simply saying that Jesus was Jewish in some vague way. He's saying that he was descneded from a specific guy in Jewish history.

What are the parrallels?

Layman

You misunderstood. According to the pagan beliefs of the time, Hercules was a human being. I wasn't arguing that Hercules was based on a real guy.

Bernard Muller

According to Greek Mythology, Hercules is described as a human on earth. The legends of his life associated him with place like Thebes (an important city in ancient Greece), Delphi, Mycenae, Peloponese, Black Sea, Crete, Spain (Tartessus) and Lydia (as the sex slave of the queen!). Of course many other names pop up, some of places or entities I know as being strictly mythological. But still, he is described as a Superman on earth.
Best regards, Bernard

Layman

Exactly my point. Thanks. When we vaguely allude to "pagan myths" we have to be careful. Many pagan myths obviously involved divine beings acting on earth.

I've seen no evidence that any of these purported pagan myths Doherty alleges existed only in the spirit realm were described as having descended from a specifica historical figure (in the mind of the believer anyway).

I was really hoping someone could provide me with the "likely suspects."

Toto

Hercules was half-mortal, half-divine, all-myth.

Are you trying to make a distinction as to pagan gods who never got to earth? I think that most of the pagan gods lived on earth and interacted with mortals, especially before the Platonists came up with their heavenly spheres.

I went back and read that part in the Jesus Puzzle and note 44, and it is a throw away line. Doherty does not base much of his case on pagan parallels, if any.

He is arguing that Paul describes Jesus as "of David's stock" because scripture requires that the savior be Davidic. In footnote 44, he argues that Hebrews 7:14 describes Jesus as "sprung from Judah" based on scripture, to give the savior a non-priestly lineage.

Paul and the writer of Hebrews, however, show no interest in tracing a genealogy for Jesus.

Layman

Apparently you are reading a different book than mine. Most of Parts One through Four are about showing how Paul is referring to a Jesus who is a purely spiritual actor in the purely spiritual realm just like those pagan purely spiritual myths acting in purely spiritual realms.

But the only way Jesus could be descended from a specific human being is if he was human. It doesn't really matter WHY Paul thought Jesus was a descendent of David, just that he was sucha descendent.

You claim this is a throwaway argument by Doherty. Is that an admission that you know of no pagan parrallels. Remember, I'm not the one who made the claim. Doherty did. Quite specifically. Because he failed to provide any references, I thought I'd come here and see if his advocates could do so. Apparently they cannot.