crazyfingers

Just to remind everyone that it isn't just xians who argue over who is a true/real (insert your religion here).

<a href="http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/052/nation/Orthodox_Jews_lose_ruling_on_conventions+.shtml" target="_blank">Orthodox Jews lose ruling on conventions</a>

IvanK

My aunt's husband and my cousin's African-American wife were playing bridge when they got into this discussion. Uncle, a Unitarian, said he felt he was culturally Jewish but didn't subscribe to the tenets of the Jewish religion so he wasn't really a Jew. Her response: "Why do you get to choose?"

Another exchange reported by Groucho Marx: a friend of his had a friend who was a hunchback. He said once, "you know, I used to be a Jew." The reply: "you know, I used to be a hunchback."

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

Orpheous99

A Jew is anyone who believes and follows the Jewish religion since that is what being a Jew means. One who asserts that they are Jewish yet doesn't belief in the religion is like an atheist calling themself a theist or someone who has had sex a virgin.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>

crazyfingers

Hmmm... I wasn't actually asking...

Just observing that the silliness is not confined just to xians.

Megatron

I hate to play the devil's advocate... but don't we do that here from time to time between atheists and agnostics?

crazyfingers

Well, there are arguments over the definitions of atheist vs agnostic but I've never hear anyone say, "You aren't a real freethinker!".

Megatron

True, that... and also, you don't often hear one of us spouting to a theist who claims to once have been an atheist, "Well, then you weren't a real atheist!"

David Gould

Don't be too sure. Strobel's 'qualifications' as an ex-atheist are often questioned.

Major Billy

Well said Orpheous! Only 1 question though:

Which is the true "Jewish religion", <a href="http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/Satmar_Rav_quote_reg-publ-aga-Zion-State.htm" target="_blank">Satmar</a> or <a href="http://www.lubavitch.com" target="_blank">Lubavitch</a>?

emotional

The Orthodox Jewish definition is "one born to a Jewish mother" (hmmm... that makes Ephraim and Manasseh, the sons of Joseph and the Egyptian woman, non-jews...). The definition is what's causing so much havoc in Israel, because there are many immigrants (from Russia especially) who see themselves as Jews but come to a stumbling block when they want to marry, for instance. Marriage in Israel is entirely in control of the local Jewish Rabbinate (or Talibanate, more like), and civil marriage can be performed only outside. As for conversion to Judaism, only Orthodox conversion (giyur kahalakha, "conversion as required by law", which takes years to complete) is state-approved (until now, perhaps).

Heck, I deem it incumbent to disobey the God of the Bible (if he exists), yet I never consider myself a non-Jew. Bertrand Russel wrote Why I Am Not A Christian, and Ibn Warraq wrote Why I Am Not A Muslim, but I can't possibly write Why I Am Not A Jew. There's more to Judaism than theistic belief and performance of robotic rabbinical commands.