I was reading the featured article on salvation.
As a Christian I have to agree, there is a lot of confusion and down right animosity among many Christian denominations regarding salvation, women preachers, etc. etc. It is a pity for sure and it is nothing new. In regards to the authors comment about God knowing a head of time that all this confusion was bound to occur. Sure He did, and He did give us one book that is hardly out of context. I am by far no theologian either but I have made a conscious effort to study the scriptures. I come to Christainity late in life with a healthy appreciation for scepticism. So naturally I started looking at the book itself. I researched the cultures that surrounded the stories of the Bible. I invested in Greek and Hebrew dictionaries. I read up on my ancient history and archeology. On top of this I have studied in depth many other religions. Learning their philosophies, founders and histories. It is within these contexts that I read the scriptures. In addition, I attend lectures and seminars when I can. Modernism, post-modernism, anthropology, creationism I have studied these things.
The message I have decoded from this confusing collection of histories, genealolgies, proverbs, and warnings is really quite simple.

Man is a free agent as are all men. This explains the confusion. Has man ever been satisfied with humbly following? Nope, from day one man has always wanted to be on top.

Mankind has fought and killed and conquered for one thing and one thing only and that is to defend what we believe. We might say it is about legal land claims but ultimately there has not been a war that couldn't trace its root cuase to a despute over religion or a philosophy. Whether it be democracy or Islam it is always about a belief.

We find all kinds of ways to justify carnage because, we just couldn't stand it if what we believe in the core of our person turns out to be wrong. To coin a phrase, we can't handle the truth.

Most of us will not even look deep enough into ourselves to admit that we are a weak, and frail people who deep inside are afraid; and it is this fear that controls us.

I am talking about a subtle fear that keeps us in our comfort zones when we know that the children next door are being mistreated and we don't make a phone call to stop it. A fear that does indeed keep us from reaching the full human potential that was God-designed. A fear that comforts us when we see the big problems of this world and have plenty to say about it, yet we can't even drag ourselves to the polls and vote on local issues. (The Uniteds States has one of the worldest lowest voter turnout records)

Jesus Christ is the perfect example of a true Humanist. He was considered a revolutionary and like Socrates was accused of swaying how people thought, and historically that is why He was crucified.

While He walked on earth He never gave a thought to Himself only others. He teaches that we can transcend fear through a lifestyle devoted to, and based on His very simple teachings.

Why is the church today such a mess and why are so many turning away, even renouncing their faith? Because of an age old enemy fear.

How often do we see throughout history how those who gain power get to a point where they want to hold on to power? What occurs is the development of paranoia, then control. Nearly all Christian denominations have come from a split within a church. Usually, it is one of two things. The Pastor either has a moral faliure or He actually tries to follow the original design and holds, prods, and demands that his parishoners follow suit. Most people aren't willing to go all the way with Christianity so they stir up trouble and oust the preacher.

It is hard to look deep into yourself and admit not just failure but perhaps the real evil which is fear.

As for me I am working out my salvation daily which is scriptural. As for a formula or a clear defined perscription for salvation, all I can offer is that salvation is believing in Christ and living the lifestyle He preaches as best you can. It is a simple choice of the heart not the mind.


<a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=192" target="_blank">http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=192</a>

-DM-

Carole:

Thank you for your feedback to Thomas Doubting's <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=192" target="_blank">Christian Salvation?</a>.

Yes, there is a lot of confusion--and even some animosity--between Christian denominations regarding the requirements for salvation.

To respond to your specific points . . .

That "God" exists at all, let alone that "He" gave us a book or knew anything at all ahead of time, is only a belief, not a given. My opinion is this: certainly a perfect and omnipotent "God" could have, should have, and would have done a better job of it than the Bible had he intended to make "His" will known to his earthly creatures.

The simple message which you claim to have decoded from "this confusing collection of histories, genealogies, proverbs, and warnings" is one that some others have also sometimes "decoded," but one with which many others would take issue. The fact that different people "decode" different meanings from what is alleged to be the inspired "word" of a perfect and omnipotent "God" is the point of the article.

That man is allegedly a free agent does not explain the confusion--except perhaps to those who want it to do so. Certainly a perfect "God" could not possibly be confused. Certainly a pefect and omnipotent "God" could inspire a book which was not confusing as well as to inspire its interpreters and those who glean something from it to glean what was intended. In fact, it would be, so far as I am concerned, "His" moral responsibility to do so.

Regarding fear: fear is only one aspect of what "controls us." Some of us are obviously more controlled by fear than others of us. Certainly Christians who succumb to Christian dogma for fear of hell are good examples of people who are more controlled by fear than those who do not succumb to that fear.

Jesus (who could not possibly have been the Christ, the Messiah, in my opinion) was anything but "the perfect example of a true Humanist." A humanist is one who believes that humans must solve human problems without expecting help from a supernatural being. Humanism rejects supernaturalism. Jesus was therefore no humanist.

Jesus may have been considered a revolutionary. He may also have been considered a crackpot or a charlatan--or "God" incarnate.

The reason that Jesus was crucified is uncertain, although there is a good possibility that he was considered an insurrectionist, a revolutionary (as you say), by the Roman authorities.

You could not possibly know what Jesus or anyone else never gave a thought to--unless you were omniscient, and I'm quite sure you are not. Therefore, your statement, "While He walked on earth He never gave a thought to Himself only others," is nothing but a cliche, the kind of cliche which is sometimes taught in Sunday school to kindergartners. And, as a matter of fact, if the biblical accounts are assumed to be accurate, your claim is dubious. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" is rather compelling evidence that your claim is inaccurate (and there is other evidence which I could also cite).

Further, I disagree that Jesus taught that we can transcend fear through a lifestyle devoted to and based on his very simple teachings. In the first place, his teachings cannot necessarily be considered "very simple" either by our standards or his alleged standards. He said, for example, that the meaning of some of his teachings was intended to be hidden so that not everyone who heard would understand. Secondly, he expressly taught that we are to fear some things, e.g., "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"Why is the church today such a mess and why are so many turning away, even renouncing their faith?" There are many theories, but certainly your theory that fear is involved is, at this point, unsupported by anything which you have said.

That you are allegedly working out your own salvation and that this is "scriptural" is based mostly on one verse, and not something that Jesus himself is said to have said. That this is a true path to salvation is certainly not accepted by the majority of Christian denominations.

That salvation is "believing in Christ and living the lifestyle he preaches as best you can" is an oversimplification of the picture. And it is no more a simple choice of the heart rather than the mind than is the choice to follow Mohammed.

--Don--

BLoggins02

Carole:

You make some very good points. I encourage you to register so that we may have some more discussion about these things.

Don:

Might you send her an additional email telling her that (or he) has been asked to return and register, and that his/her post has been moved to this forum? Thanks

Sephiroth

To be honest, I've heard all those arguments before...blech.

sidewinder

Carole's post is a perfect example of how individual Christians pick and choose the content of their Christian faith. They choose what fits their lifestyle and philosophy of life and call themselves Christian.

LiquidBread

I hate to say it, but this post reads like a cut and paste from a Feel-good xian site.

I doubt we will see 'Carole' again.

Of course, it would be cool if it were a real post and she did come back. I'd like to ask her a few questions....

Eudaimonist

Yuck! You're failing to sell me on him.

I'm interested in my own self-improvement and flourishing, thus I need to give considerable thought to myself. Why would I want to ignore myself? I don't want to be a selfless zombie.

Socrates is a more appealing hero. He lived a rational life in pursuit of wisdom and self-knowledge. He was put to death on charges of atheism. He had the opportunity to escape his death sentence, but didn't on principle. He is a shining symbol of integrity. Jesus falls short of the example of Socrates in every way except popularity.

braces_for_impact

I agree with sidewinder. Well said! Isn't that precisely what all these different denominations are? Picking and choosing? Emphasis on this part, ignoring of this part,is that not what makes the very differences in which denomination one chooses? In the end, don't you *have* to pick and choose? With so many conflicts (regardless of language and translation) one is forced to pick and choose, or drive yourself insane trying to hold it all together!

I also agree with others on this Jesus dogma. I note many instances in the bible where Jesus was cruel and immoral. Xtians have put jesus on a pedastal as the absolute to immitate. Too bad they don't *read* what the bible says.

never been there

&lt;Carole&gt;, In the first few lines of your posting you have begged the very question I have long wondered about!

Is having a woman as pastor compatible with Christianity or not?

Please answer!

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by &lt;Carole&gt;:
<strong>
While He walked on earth He never gave a thought to Himself only others. </strong>

What, He never bathed? He never changed his undies? Ick, he sounds revolting.