SmokeDoctor

The issue of prophecy coming true, or not, is a recurring one. Others here are asking related questions, e.g., about Babylon.

There might be an easier example. For example, 1 Chronicles 17:10-14, and 1 Chronicles 22:10, among others, provided for David a throne, monarchical rulership, for his son and his descendants, to have forever.

I recall reading, but cannot find, a reference by somebody such as Thomas Paine, in Age of Reason, saying this did not happen, i.e., is demonstrably false.

Paine's Age of Reason is here at http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...son/part1.html and http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...on/part2.html, but I can't find the reference.

Perhaps it was some other writer that discussed this matter of David's throne promised forever.

Old Man

Depends how you perceive the matter. David was God's appointed to reign over "Israel". Israel means "God prevails" - the kingdom of God's people. As is pointed out in the NT, Israel was founded on the faith of Abraham, who was the precursor of the nation of Israel. Under the Old Covenant of the law, the only Israelites who pleased God were those with faith. Even at that time, the true "Israel" was the remnant who did not "bow their knee to Baal". The rest were "of Israel" but not the true Israel.

After Christ, this distinction between those "of Israel" and those who "were Israel" (which distinction had been subdued in the OT nation of Israel) became much more visible.

The kingdom of the Jews (those "of Israel") was dispensed with by God (cf the destruction of the temple in AD70 + the Jewish dispersion) in favor of the church, which alone retained the title to "Israel", as the apostle Paul makes clear:

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Christ sat of the throne of David, by virtue of inheriting the title to the throne of Israel, God people everywhere, which is a supra-national body (and not to be confused with the latterly created political structure in the middle east).

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

SmokeDoctor

Thank you for your response.

But it seems to miss the point.

After David, his dynasty only lasted until Zedekiah.

Christ did not come along for centuries, much later.

The prophecy of 'always' a descendant on the throne does not allow for hundreds of years of missing time!

If Britain should someday take over the U.S., and its ruler run the U.S., it would not be true to say, British monarchs 'always' ruled in the U.S. The hundreds of years gap could not be wished away thus.

And the prophecies to David included reference to the concept that if a successor did wrong, God would correct, chastise, that successor, but not take away the throne succession.

This cannot possibly mean Christ, as he would not be making errors for which correction and chastisement would be needed, while his son would in turn take over the throne next after him, and his son's son . . . . !

Bobzammel

Another one of these prophecies about David's line continuing forever-I think in Jeremiah-also states that the Levites would also be the eternal preistly class. The author of Hebrews, with some clever misqoutation of the Psalms, states that this was canceled by Jesus.

Old Man

The promise to David was conditional:

1Ki 2:4 [David speaking] That the LORD may continue his word which he spake concerning me, saying, If thy children take heed to their way, to walk before me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, there shall not fail thee (said he) a man on the throne of Israel.

There was also the promise regarding the house of David and the throne of David

2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever


The throne was the throne over "God's people". When Israel rebelled and got shipped to Babylon, they were no longer God's people. The throne became disassociated from the Israelite nation at that time and became spiritual in nature. But there were always those who did not bow the knee to Baal, and it must be assumed that David's line continued in that vein down to Jesus, who ascended to reign over all God's resurrected people in the form of the church.

Bobzammel

There is another element though. Jesus-in both versions of his genealogies-comes from the "cursed Branch" of David.
Also, it is quite clear from Zechiriah that the Davidic branch did apparentally continue post-exile.

Bobzammel

Here is the passage:

Jeremiah 22:24,28-30

"Surely as I live," says *YAHWEH*, "You, Jeconiah, the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, even if you were a signet ring upon my right hand, I would cast you off!"
Is this man Jeconiah a broken, abominable idol, an object for which no one cares?...
Write this man off as if childless, a man who shall not prosper in his days, because no one descended from him shall find success in sitting in the Kingship of David or ruling any more in Judah.

SmokeDoctor

You say in the first of your two recent responses, "it is quite clear from Zechiriah that the Davidic branch did apparentally continue post-exile." Please elaborate on this aspect.

Bobzammel

Zerubabbel-The Persian-appointed governor of Jerusalem-is stated to come from the Davidic line. In fact, both Haggai and Zechariah describe Zerubabbel in Messanic terms. However Zerubabbel and indeed the Davidic line disappear pretty much entirely from records until the New Testament.

SmokeDoctor

Thank you for continuing response.

You say "the Davidic line disappear pretty much entirely from records until the New Testament."

That pretty much brings us back to the original issue, of the first post in this series:

"The issue of prophecy coming true, or not, is a recurring one. . . . . For example, 1 Chronicles 17:10-14, and 1 Chronicles 22:10, among others, provided for David a throne, monarchical rulership, for his son and his descendants, to have forever. I recall reading, but cannot find, a reference by somebody such as Thomas Paine, in Age of Reason, saying this did not happen, i.e., is demonstrably false."

Once we identify a gap of hundreds of years, with no descendant of David on throne, the prophecies to David are then demonstrably false, as Thomas Paine or others have said.

Apparently at this point, you agree.

So my initial question remains, that being the case -- was it Thomas Paine or or some other eminent writer of his era, that is the person I'm trying to recall, who cited this Davidic-throne-line prophecy, being false, thus casts doubt on Bible.