Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pug846 · 01-22-2002, 05:04 PM

Hi guys �

The student organization I�m a president of is holding an Intelligent Design � Evolution debate in about a month. Before the debate begins, a moderator will give, amongst other things, a short speech about the history of evolution and Intelligent Design. I�d really like to make sure I don�t make any factual errors and would like the speech to be as neutral as possible in terms of the language I use. I�ve written the following basic outline and would appreciate constructive criticism. I'm having trouble finishing it off...Does anyone have any links that summarize the history of the debate that I can use to base my outline on? My brain has shut down for some reason, so I'm hoping some of you have some good ideas. Thanks in advance.

- Although different conceptions of evolution have been around since the ancient Greeks, evolution was given solid scientific footing in the mid-19th century with Darwin�s theory of natural selection. Darwin argued that species who were better suited for their particular environment were more likely to survive and thereby, pass on their heredity information on to their off spring. Over time, species would slowly evolve and in many cases, become more and more suited to their particular niche when there was selection pressure to do so. Although the concept of the gene hadn�t yet been discovered, a plausible mechanism had been supplied to support evolution. Through the birth of genetics and the discovery of DNA, evolutionary biology has taken off as a science and is commonly accepted as scientific fact by the majority of scientists. Over ___% of scientists feel that the theory of evolution is supported by enough evidence, that they would find it highly unlikely that it would ever be overturned and supplanted by a new theory. (find % of biologists or scientists in relevant fields who take evolution as scientific fact.)
- Although evolution has always had its critics here in the U.S., the criticism has generally been on religious and not scientific grounds. However, a group of scientists are attempting to show that by using science, we can see that the theory of evolution isn�t sufficient to explain life as we know it.
- Intelligent Design, the theory that we can detect intelligent design behind life, had its coming out party in 1996 in Dr. Michael Behe�s national best seller, Darwin�s Black Box. Dr. Behe argued that certain biological processes were irreducibly complex and that irreducibly complex processes couldn�t evolve through a strictly biological explanation of evolution. Dr. Behe argued that if a system were set up so that if one of the pieces were missing the whole system wouldn�t work, and therefore would not be able to slowly evolve through natural selection. He used the example of a mousetrap to show that if one of the pieces of a mousetrap were missing, the whole mousetrap would fail.
- Defenders of the theory of evolution have countered with claims that evolution can account for irreducibly complex systems � functions of pieces of a system can change over time. Although all the pieces of a system might now be dependent on each other, certain pieces might have had a different purpose and the system has only become interdependent on each other since the pieces have changed use.
- Proponents of Intelligent Design have found the scientific evidence lacking for the claim that naturalistic evolution is enough to account for life. They further argue that given the amount of information in a single cell�(something about information theory? And that we can validly infer that design has taken place).
Scientists who support evolution have�

ex-robot · 01-22-2002, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pug846:
Hi guys –

- Although different conceptions of evolution have been around since the ancient Greeks, evolution was given solid scientific footing in the mid-19th century with Darwin’s theory of natural selection. Darwin argued that species who were better suited for their particular environment were more likely to survive and thereby, pass on their heredity information on to their off spring. Over time, species would slowly evolve and in many cases, become more and more suited to their particular niche when there was selection pressure to do so. Although the concept of the gene hadn’t yet been discovered, a plausible mechanism had been supplied to support evolution. Through the birth of genetics and the discovery of DNA, evolutionary biology has taken off as a science and is commonly accepted as scientific fact by the majority of scientists.

huh? No mention of common descent? If that is what "evolution" and "evolutionary biology" are all about, you wouldn't be having a debate.

All I am saying is that you should add some mention of common descent of all organisms.

Quote:

Over ___% of scientists feel that the theory of evolution is supported by enough evidence, that they would find it highly unlikely that it would ever be overturned and supplanted by a new theory. (find % of biologists or scientists in relevant fields who take evolution as scientific fact.)

You have just appealed to authority which is supposed to only belong in the realm of the creationist. I also believe most evolutionists would object to this as well. It makes evolutionists look very dogmatic and close-minded.

Quote:

- Although evolution has always had its critics here in the U.S., the criticism has generally been on religious and not scientific grounds.

Although you may feel this way, it doesn't accurately represent the views of creationists/id.

Hope that helps.

Dr Rick · 01-22-2002, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pug846:
...Defenders of the theory of evolution have countered...Proponents of Intelligent Design have ...They further argue...Scientists who support evolution have�

I constructively and humbly offer the criticism that you appear to be summarizing the entire debate before it has begun; all that you say is true and well-put, but aren't the debaters supposed to be presenting the arguments?

Just the history behind the ideas as you've already written would do the job well; throw in a wry reference to an inside campus joke or a harmless pun as part of the intro, and you'll be set .

pug846 · 01-23-2002, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbochnermd:


I constructively and humbly offer the criticism that you appear to be summarizing the entire debate before it has begun; all that you say is true and well-put, but aren't the debaters supposed to be presenting the arguments?

Just the history behind the ideas as you've already written would do the job well; throw in a wry reference to an inside campus joke or a harmless pun as part of the intro, and you'll be set .

Thanks Dr. Rick - that makes a lot more sense.

I'd much rather give a speech in front of an audience than write one...

Kaina · 01-23-2002, 09:41 AM

Avoid using the phrase "coming out party" as that has bad connotations to many religious types.

The history of ID extends much further back than Behe's book, though that may be where the scientific veneer was added. The argument from design has been with us as long as Christianity.

01-22-2002, 05:04 PM	#1
pug846 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,587	Intro to Intelligent Design - Evolution debate Hi guys � The student organization I�m a president of is holding an Intelligent Design � Evolution debate in about a month. Before the debate begins, a moderator will give, amongst other things, a short speech about the history of evolution and Intelligent Design. I�d really like to make sure I don�t make any factual errors and would like the speech to be as neutral as possible in terms of the language I use. I�ve written the following basic outline and would appreciate constructive criticism. I'm having trouble finishing it off...Does anyone have any links that summarize the history of the debate that I can use to base my outline on? My brain has shut down for some reason, so I'm hoping some of you have some good ideas. Thanks in advance. - Although different conceptions of evolution have been around since the ancient Greeks, evolution was given solid scientific footing in the mid-19th century with Darwin�s theory of natural selection. Darwin argued that species who were better suited for their particular environment were more likely to survive and thereby, pass on their heredity information on to their off spring. Over time, species would slowly evolve and in many cases, become more and more suited to their particular niche when there was selection pressure to do so. Although the concept of the gene hadn�t yet been discovered, a plausible mechanism had been supplied to support evolution. Through the birth of genetics and the discovery of DNA, evolutionary biology has taken off as a science and is commonly accepted as scientific fact by the majority of scientists. Over ___% of scientists feel that the theory of evolution is supported by enough evidence, that they would find it highly unlikely that it would ever be overturned and supplanted by a new theory. (find % of biologists or scientists in relevant fields who take evolution as scientific fact.) - Although evolution has always had its critics here in the U.S., the criticism has generally been on religious and not scientific grounds. However, a group of scientists are attempting to show that by using science, we can see that the theory of evolution isn�t sufficient to explain life as we know it. - Intelligent Design, the theory that we can detect intelligent design behind life, had its coming out party in 1996 in Dr. Michael Behe�s national best seller, Darwin�s Black Box. Dr. Behe argued that certain biological processes were irreducibly complex and that irreducibly complex processes couldn�t evolve through a strictly biological explanation of evolution. Dr. Behe argued that if a system were set up so that if one of the pieces were missing the whole system wouldn�t work, and therefore would not be able to slowly evolve through natural selection. He used the example of a mousetrap to show that if one of the pieces of a mousetrap were missing, the whole mousetrap would fail. - Defenders of the theory of evolution have countered with claims that evolution can account for irreducibly complex systems � functions of pieces of a system can change over time. Although all the pieces of a system might now be dependent on each other, certain pieces might have had a different purpose and the system has only become interdependent on each other since the pieces have changed use. - Proponents of Intelligent Design have found the scientific evidence lacking for the claim that naturalistic evolution is enough to account for life. They further argue that given the amount of information in a single cell�(something about information theory? And that we can validly infer that design has taken place). Scientists who support evolution have�

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01-23-2002, 09:41 AM	#5
Kaina Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Portland OR USA Posts: 158	Avoid using the phrase "coming out party" as that has bad connotations to many religious types. The history of ID extends much further back than Behe's book, though that may be where the scientific veneer was added. The argument from design has been with us as long as Christianity.

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