Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Dionysian · 12-09-2002, 05:30 PM

"Well, as long as we know where we stand.

You wouldn't be a Sex Pistols fan would you?"

Actually I've never listened to them. I should let you know that I'm going through something in my life that is unbelievably depressing so that's probably influencing what I'm saying here.

Answerer · 12-09-2002, 06:36 PM

In Buddhism, there is no difference between ultimate and relative or subjective truth. They are the same.

Chip · 12-09-2002, 09:34 PM

Interesting Answerer. I understand that there are various sects of Buddhism, Mahayana Buddhism being closest to my own perspective though I'm sure there are various manifestations of the "big raft.". Hinayana Buddhism contains sects that appear very similar to some Christian sects as I understand it. Still it is possible that what you say is a relatively valid remark. I've never heard of it before and if you could provide some reference I would be appreciative.

Regards, Chip

Answerer · 12-10-2002, 12:36 AM

Hi Chip, the reason behind the similarity of absolute and relative truth is emptiness. Here is a website which I think explain the point quite well.

<a href="http://www.akshin.net/philosophy/budphilnagarjuna.htm" target="_blank">http://www.akshin.net/philosophy/budphilnagarjuna.htm</a>

For any further Buddhist philosophical explanations, you can refer to any popular Zen teachings or Nagarjuna's work. I don't recommend any tantric teaching as it is very spiritual inclined.

abe smith · 12-10-2002, 04:24 AM

In a certain recorded dialog (perhaps apocryphal after all) the guy in power asked "What is Truth?" and the yudder guy in gyves answered "I am the Truth." (Must be in G/John, who was alwiz writing sentences w/ "I am...")
And the same alleged record tells us which of them-two ended-up dead faster...

A few fast laps around the Truth track are okay, if ye're not too aged already; gets tiresome after the first 100 years. Wanta play Scrabble?

Osiris · 12-10-2002, 08:10 AM

"Abstract words are the ancient coins whose concrete images in the busy give-and-take of talk have worn away with use." -Julian Jaynes

Truth is dependent on the lanquage/words you use to communicate it. Not very reliable.

Chip · 12-10-2002, 08:41 AM

Very interesting Answerer. I find study of that link is facilitating the branching of new neurons in my brain which I enjoy immensely. Will have to study and cogitate on this for quite awhile.

Thanks, Chip

Keith Russell · 12-10-2002, 05:19 PM

Answerer said:
"In Buddhism, there is no difference between ultimate and relative or subjective truth."

So, in Buddhism, the above statement isn't really true?

Keith.

dostf · 12-10-2002, 06:26 PM

Does truth exist outside of my ability to perceive it, or does what I perceive define what truth is? (justice machine)

- There is no "truth" "outside" of you.
- Your perception defines what truth is for YOU
- However due to our "attributes"(which might be described as upbringing, genetics, knowledge, beliefs, self definitions, personal history, etc.-this perception is a partial viewpoint, and particular to the "individual".
- The person that no longer "lives" these attributes or "believes in their reality", is defined as "HUMAN BEING" or truth itself(they are not separate)...

Be seeing you...

John Page · 12-10-2002, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dostf:
<strong>...- There is no "truth" "outside" of you.
- Your perception defines what truth is for YOU....
</strong>

1. I concur with the above truth stated by dostf - because it exists inside my head also.
2. The observation (#1 above) illustrates how a truth appears to exist outside an individual and independent of him/her.
3. Thus, through the similarity in our cognitive processes we come to agree on the existence of a common external reality.
4. In this model, all individual views are necessarily subjective.

Thus, truth and objectivity can only be measured in relation to an observer or testable against an observation.

Cheers, John

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12-09-2002, 05:30 PM	#31
The Dionysian Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: who knows Posts: 154	"Well, as long as we know where we stand. You wouldn't be a Sex Pistols fan would you?" Actually I've never listened to them. I should let you know that I'm going through something in my life that is unbelievably depressing so that's probably influencing what I'm saying here.

12-09-2002, 06:36 PM	#32
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	In Buddhism, there is no difference between ultimate and relative or subjective truth. They are the same.

12-09-2002, 09:34 PM	#33
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	Interesting Answerer. I understand that there are various sects of Buddhism, Mahayana Buddhism being closest to my own perspective though I'm sure there are various manifestations of the "big raft.". Hinayana Buddhism contains sects that appear very similar to some Christian sects as I understand it. Still it is possible that what you say is a relatively valid remark. I've never heard of it before and if you could provide some reference I would be appreciative. Regards, Chip

12-10-2002, 12:36 AM	#34
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Hi Chip, the reason behind the similarity of absolute and relative truth is emptiness. Here is a website which I think explain the point quite well. <a href="http://www.akshin.net/philosophy/budphilnagarjuna.htm" target="_blank">http://www.akshin.net/philosophy/budphilnagarjuna.htm</a> For any further Buddhist philosophical explanations, you can refer to any popular Zen teachings or Nagarjuna's work. I don't recommend any tantric teaching as it is very spiritual inclined.

12-10-2002, 04:24 AM	#35
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	In a certain recorded dialog (perhaps apocryphal after all) the guy in power asked "What is Truth?" and the yudder guy in gyves answered "I am the Truth." (Must be in G/John, who was alwiz writing sentences w/ "I am...") And the same alleged record tells us which of them-two ended-up dead faster... A few fast laps around the Truth track are okay, if ye're not too aged already; gets tiresome after the first 100 years. Wanta play Scrabble?

12-10-2002, 08:10 AM	#36
Osiris Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 40	"Abstract words are the ancient coins whose concrete images in the busy give-and-take of talk have worn away with use." -Julian Jaynes Truth is dependent on the lanquage/words you use to communicate it. Not very reliable.

12-10-2002, 08:41 AM	#37
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	Very interesting Answerer. I find study of that link is facilitating the branching of new neurons in my brain which I enjoy immensely. Will have to study and cogitate on this for quite awhile. Thanks, Chip

12-10-2002, 05:19 PM	#38
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Answerer said: "In Buddhism, there is no difference between ultimate and relative or subjective truth." So, in Buddhism, the above statement isn't really true? Keith.

12-10-2002, 06:26 PM	#39
dostf Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto canada Posts: 498	Does truth exist outside of my ability to perceive it, or does what I perceive define what truth is? (justice machine) - There is no "truth" "outside" of you. - Your perception defines what truth is for YOU - However due to our "attributes"(which might be described as upbringing, genetics, knowledge, beliefs, self definitions, personal history, etc.-this perception is a partial viewpoint, and particular to the "individual". - The person that no longer "lives" these attributes or "believes in their reality", is defined as "HUMAN BEING" or truth itself(they are not separate)... Be seeing you...

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