Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Oregon Slim · 03-03-2002, 10:39 PM

The preacher at our local Unitarian hubbub gave a sermon today that to me shows the dangers of taking ancient spiritual wisdom seriously. The subject was evil in the world.

She said that there was evil in the world, and she gave an example of Hitler as someone who had been evil. Fair enough. But then she wandered into the story of Job and of all the terrible things that God had done to the righteous Job and she said that Job should have realized that those were not evil, just the breaks of the game. Things happen. God knows what he's doing. We weren't there when he built the earth, so we are too ignorant to complain. IOW, might makes right. Get used to it.

When the Nazis do it, it's evil. When God does it, don't complain. (She didn't mention the Republicans)

If she had any balls, she might have said that evil is evil and that God has his bad days, too.
Even quite a few, if you read the Bible.

Or, maybe she should have told us that when people give us the Hoseannas we demand, we shouldn't take them too seriously, or we might forget to be considerate of others.

Or, she might have said that the story of Job shows us that our collective moral sensibility has grown a little in a couple thousand years and it's time to imagine a better God than folks got by with back then.

Or, she might have told us that the wise ancients gave us a story of God's capriciousness as an apt metaphor for his apparent absence from the universe.

Instead, she just stood up for the whole sadistic story at face value. Can anyone suggest a worthwhile lesson in the story Job? One that makes sense to a person who wants to strengthen his own ability to choose right and not wrong?

Jamie_L · 03-04-2002, 04:44 AM

As I've said in other threads:

When men do good things, God is working through them.

When men do bad things, it's free will/evil.

When good things just happen, it's the will/grace of God.

When bad things just happen, God works in mysterious ways. Trust him.

God gets all the credit and none of the blame. I wish I could get people to treat me like that.

Jamie

HelenM · 03-04-2002, 04:57 AM

What I like about the book of Job is that Job never gives into his friends who say "you must have done something wrong and that's why God did this to you".

He is persistent and he eventually gets an audience with God. I think that's very cool and he has more guts than a lot of theists today

I'd say that persistence pays and don't believe everything your 'friends' tell you. Those are lessons I like, from the book

Why don't you say to the preacher what you said to us (tactfully, respectfully) and see what she says? I mean, that's ok isn't it, in UU churches, to ask questions?

love
Helen

Kosh · 03-04-2002, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:

He is persistent and he eventually gets an audience with God. I think that's very cool and he has more guts than a lot of theists today

I tried to get an audience with God for years.

I guess that even though he cares personally
about me, his schedule is booked...

HelenM · 03-04-2002, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh:


I tried to get an audience with God for years.

I guess that even though he cares personally
about me, his schedule is booked...

Hi Kosh

If you are serious that you really tried then I'm sorry you didn't seem to get anywhere...

love
Helen

Jamie_L · 03-04-2002, 08:49 AM

Even if Kosh isn't serious, I honestly did spend a fair amount of time trying to connect with God. Don't know if I'd say I was "asking for an audience," but I was hoping for some sense that I was on the right track. I read the New Testament, searching for something that felt "true." I didn't find it.

Since then, I've had my Job-like experiences, and my lack of faith in supernatural forces has been my source of strength. I don't have to worry that this is an evil force out to get me, or a mysterious God working in inscruitable ways, or that I somehow deserve my fate. I take solace in the fact that each incident is just a quirk of chaos - a culmination of unfortunate circumstances. Each day afterwards is a new day with new possibilities.

I think faith in God would have made some things harder to take.

Jamie

Hobbs · 03-04-2002, 08:55 AM

What about Job's wife? I've heard a lot of sermons on that books, and I don't think she ever gets enough credit.

Boro Nut · 03-04-2002, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:
What about Job's wife? I've heard a lot of sermons on that books, and I don't think she ever gets enough credit.

That's because he turned her into a pillow of salt, silly.

Boro Nut

Talulah · 03-04-2002, 09:51 AM

That was Lot's wife.

HelenM · 03-04-2002, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
I think faith in God would have made some things harder to take.

Yeah, it can do because then you wonder why God allowed it to happen to you.

Or if you're really not-blessed you might have your own questions compounded by theist 'friends' like Job's who flock to you to tell you it's all YOUR fault.

Christians can be really good at that

love
Helen

03-03-2002, 10:39 PM	#1
Oregon Slim Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 283	Story of Job The preacher at our local Unitarian hubbub gave a sermon today that to me shows the dangers of taking ancient spiritual wisdom seriously. The subject was evil in the world. She said that there was evil in the world, and she gave an example of Hitler as someone who had been evil. Fair enough. But then she wandered into the story of Job and of all the terrible things that God had done to the righteous Job and she said that Job should have realized that those were not evil, just the breaks of the game. Things happen. God knows what he's doing. We weren't there when he built the earth, so we are too ignorant to complain. IOW, might makes right. Get used to it. When the Nazis do it, it's evil. When God does it, don't complain. (She didn't mention the Republicans) If she had any balls, she might have said that evil is evil and that God has his bad days, too. Even quite a few, if you read the Bible. Or, maybe she should have told us that when people give us the Hoseannas we demand, we shouldn't take them too seriously, or we might forget to be considerate of others. Or, she might have said that the story of Job shows us that our collective moral sensibility has grown a little in a couple thousand years and it's time to imagine a better God than folks got by with back then. Or, she might have told us that the wise ancients gave us a story of God's capriciousness as an apt metaphor for his apparent absence from the universe. Instead, she just stood up for the whole sadistic story at face value. Can anyone suggest a worthwhile lesson in the story Job? One that makes sense to a person who wants to strengthen his own ability to choose right and not wrong?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-04-2002, 04:44 AM	#2
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	As I've said in other threads: When men do good things, God is working through them. When men do bad things, it's free will/evil. When good things just happen, it's the will/grace of God. When bad things just happen, God works in mysterious ways. Trust him. God gets all the credit and none of the blame. I wish I could get people to treat me like that. Jamie

03-04-2002, 04:57 AM	#3
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	What I like about the book of Job is that Job never gives into his friends who say "you must have done something wrong and that's why God did this to you". He is persistent and he eventually gets an audience with God. I think that's very cool and he has more guts than a lot of theists today I'd say that persistence pays and don't believe everything your 'friends' tell you. Those are lessons I like, from the book Why don't you say to the preacher what you said to us (tactfully, respectfully) and see what she says? I mean, that's ok isn't it, in UU churches, to ask questions? love Helen

03-04-2002, 08:49 AM	#6
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Even if Kosh isn't serious, I honestly did spend a fair amount of time trying to connect with God. Don't know if I'd say I was "asking for an audience," but I was hoping for some sense that I was on the right track. I read the New Testament, searching for something that felt "true." I didn't find it. Since then, I've had my Job-like experiences, and my lack of faith in supernatural forces has been my source of strength. I don't have to worry that this is an evil force out to get me, or a mysterious God working in inscruitable ways, or that I somehow deserve my fate. I take solace in the fact that each incident is just a quirk of chaos - a culmination of unfortunate circumstances. Each day afterwards is a new day with new possibilities. I think faith in God would have made some things harder to take. Jamie

03-04-2002, 08:55 AM	#7
Hobbs Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 929	What about Job's wife? I've heard a lot of sermons on that books, and I don't think she ever gets enough credit.

03-04-2002, 09:51 AM	#9
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	That was Lot's wife.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.