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We're not talking about what these OT stories say about ancient Israelites. We're talking about what these OT stories say about God. You know exactly what we're talking about.

"And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

"And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son."

Whether christians hold these passages as valid or not, the standards for morality haven't changed. The OT is either false in it's entirety. The OT is blasphemous in it's immoral portrayal of God, or God is exactly the montrous butcherer as portrayed in the OT.

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I hope this lets you sleep better. You'll never know if that's it though. Perhaps psychosis is a common result from direct contact with a murderous and genocidal God that wants you to murder your children.

Actually, religion is the religion as defined in the Bible. Hearing things from God is common in the Bible, and it's intrinsic to Christianity. Mainstream christianity has deviated a little on that.

Your church is a little different than the Southern Baptist church. Are the Baptists part of modern christianity? Read this God first, therapeutic culture second church doctrine. Consider that God may have his own purposes and redemptive solutions just as they are portrayed in the OT. What better way to commnicate them than to explode as voices in your head?



On The Sufficiency Of Scripture In A Therapeutic Culture
June 2002



WHEREAS, Southern Baptists are committed to the authority, sufficiency, and relevance of the Bible (2 Timothy 3:15-17); and

WHEREAS, The Bible teaches that human beings are created in the image of God—made by Him, like Him, and for Him (Genesis 1:27-28)—and that because of sinful rebellion against the Creator, our entire being suffers from sin’s corruption (Genesis 3:6-19; Ecclesiastes 9:3; Romans 1-3); and

WHEREAS, All aspects of our lives—including our spiritual, moral, and psychological conditions—are to be informed and governed by the application of and obedience to Holy Scripture (1 Corinthians 10:31); and

WHEREAS, In this therapeutic culture, physicians and counselors often ignore human sin and its effects, neglect our most fundamental human and spiritual needs, and therefore, misunderstand our condition, mistreat our problems, and sometimes unintentionally do more harm than good; and

WHEREAS, An uncritical acceptance of the therapeutic culture too often has infected our pulpits, ministries, and counseling (Colossians 2:8); and

WHEREAS, Our churches often have neglected our God-ordained responsibility for the care and cure of souls, becoming practically ineffective, both marginalizing ourselves from the culture and being marginalized by the mental health establishment; now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in St. Louis, Missouri, June 11-12, 2002, affirm Christian counseling that relies upon the Word of God rather than theories that are rooted in a defective understanding of human nature (John 17:17); and be it further

RESOLVED, That we affirm that any method worthy of the name “Christian counseling” must address the root of our problems and reveal the crux of God’s solution—the redemptive work of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God, by which the depths of sin and the fullness of grace are made known (Hebrews 4:12-16); and be it further

RESOLVED, That, while we affirm that there are real conditions that warrant legitimate medical treatment, we reject the assumptions of the therapeutic culture that offer a pharmacological solution for every human problem; and be it finally

RESOLVED, That we call on all Southern Baptists and our churches to reclaim practical biblical wisdom, Christ-centered counseling, and the restorative ministry of the care and cure of souls.

Ronin

brettc :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

BioBeing

Do they have a list that defines the two groups of conditions? Does a broken arm come in the former of the latter? How about SARS? Bacterial pneumonia? Common cold? Depression? Psychosis? Chronic fatigue syndrome? Heart attack? Stroke? How do they diagnose illnesses? Do you go to a Dr, get a diagnosis, and then go back to the Church, or do you go to the Church first, and ask if you need to see a Dr?

DMB

This doesn't seem entirely consistent to me. You can't fathom how anyone could harm a child, she's a sick, sick woman, but you hope she's not found insane.

"Insanity" is defined by the society it occurs in. If people's behaviour is so out of the ordinary that we find it inexplicable and if it violates our idea of what is acceptable we usually describe it as insane.

Believe me, even one child can sometimes be maddening. With three it is more likely. This poor woman was home-schooling them too, which meant she probably had no escape from them. Add on the guilt feelings and sense of inadequacy she probably felt as a result of her religious indoctrination and you have a recipe for a temporary explosion.

You are lucky if you have always so far been able to maintain mental equilibrium. Many of us crumble under stress and behave in ways that are usually uncharacteristic of us. I hope your luck holds out, but there is no guarantee that it will. Of course, if you do flip one day, it doesn't mean you will necessarily commit child murder. But any loss of control and disintegration is frightening and painful.

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Psycho Christian: "Preacher! Preacher! I'm hearing voices in my head! It's God! It's God! I know it's God! He's shown me miracles and angels, and he's chosen me to reveal his new good news. As a test of faith, he wants me to murder my child! Then he tells me the Muslims are wicked, their sin very grievous, and none among them are righteous. I don't know what he's going to ask next!"

I'd like to see what they think the root of this problem is and what is the crux of God's solution. Then when God gives his answer through the Psycho Christian, I'd like to see the look on the preacher's face.

Sabine Grant

[QUOTE]Originally posted by brettc
[B]I hope this lets you sleep better. You'll never know if that's it though. Perhaps psychosis is a common result from direct contact with a murderous and genocidal God that wants you to murder your children. [QUOTE]

I unfortunatly know too well what symptoms a psychosis can cause.... assuming that only people who " have direct contact with a murderous and genocidal God that wants you to murder your children" will suffer of a psychosis would be quite a major assumption on your part. Thank you for adding " perhaps" to give the reader a sense of moderation in your statement.

There is no way my mother could be an exception to your perception that a " direct contact with God" results in a psychosis. In her acute crisis, she actualy despises any god...her self made reality contains only an intense distress where even mankind is being despised. I had to inform myself a lot on the psychosis topic to be able to provide means for her to survive her illness.

In any case, I have come to the conclusion that some schizophrenic patients will draw their self made reality from their most influencial environment. I have no doubts that Andrea Yates was not treated medicaly efficiently and with continuity. As far as the other case mentionned here, that sudden onset which resulted in a horrendous crime is most probably the result of a non diagnosed mental illness. It will be interesting to stay informed on the various psychiatric evaluations presented during the court process.

Sabine Grant

I agree..... I will also add that the justice system does differenciate between a murder commited by cause of insanity and one commited with " full reason" ( premeditation being the worst case scenario). I certainly support 100% that distinction.

What kind of society would we be if we held accountable a person who was born with a cerebral defficiency which causes them to be highly dysfunctional? maybe one that would kill any child diagnosed as potentialy psychotic?

We have means to detect and prevent crimes commited by mentaly ill patients....... I certainly hope that if declared insane by proper psychiatric evaluation, this woman will be institutionalized and recieve medical help. I have always wondered though how such a person as she regains a sense of sanity would react to the realization of having killed her own children. What kind of agony she may experience for years.

Sabine Grant

BRETTC : may I ask you to give a definition of the mental disorder known as a " psychosis"? preferably one which is supported by medical research.

BadBadBad

I said perhaps psychosis is a common result from being confronted with a God that wants you to murder your child. I didn't say that every psychotic has a murderous God in his ear.

You assume that she had a psychosis first then she heard voices from God. Which came first, voices from God or psychosis? Think about it. A god like entity contacts you through voices or visions and assures you he's God. Right as you're about to bow down and worship him with all your heart, he proposes a test of faith. He wants that sweet savour again. Your child. That's what he wants. Sacrifice your child. Sacrifice your child. Over and over you hear these voices from God. Of course you have doubts. In fact you decide to reject this god outright and make an appointment with your psychiatrist. But then you start to worry about hell and damnation. Then, all at once, God makes it all clear to you, and you know what you must do. I don't know about you, but that might make me go crazy.

Which came first, psychosis or a murderous chat with God, and how can you tell?