Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Starboy · 04-15-2003, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
OK let's stop beating around the bush. If it turns ot Christ is God, would you accept his offer and agree to obey him, to be reprogrammmed (as it were) with a "new nature" or not?

(I'll go out on a limb and predict we will now see what this question usually engenders, i.e, inane responses and evasive maneuvers).

Rad

Inane response #1.

What god?

mike_decock · 04-15-2003, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
It's offensive to me as well, but it is also on private property. I suspect you would defend an "artist" putting Christ upside down in a jar of urine on PUBLIC PROPERTY at my expense is fine though. Right? Ah yes, let's do remove everything from the earth which somebody finds offensive. Agreed?

Just because I'm offended DOESN'T mean I want to outlaw or censor what people put on private property. Then again, I would probably be forced to remove the giant phallus from the steeple of my "Church of the Phallus" so perhaps you can see that there is a double standard in effect here.

As far as public funds is concerned, I don't think it should be spent on ANY art, pro-religious or anti-religious.

Also, all those churches are tax-exempt organizations and are under less scrutiny than nonprofit charitable organizations. Perhaps I'm not paying for those churches, but I'm picking up the slack for the taxes those businesses don't pay.

-Mike...

mike_decock · 04-15-2003, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut
What do I have a choice of watching on Sunday morning?

Sunday morning? Sunday mornings are for snoozing! It's a sacrilege to do anything BUT sleep on Sunday mornings!

Quote:

This is pretty disgusting. The TV owners don't want people to see that there are other choices in life, they want people to think that the ONLY religion out there is christianity and that is not true.

I would probably stop watching TV if I didn't have cable (History Channel, National Geographic Channel, Discovery, TLC). They do lots of shows on different religions and cultures. Unfortunately, if it ain't propaganda, it ain't free

.

-Mike...

Nowhere357 · 04-15-2003, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Re: Nowhere:

Why I'm not in the least, and find your comment rather presumptious and patronizing. Was I being particularly sarcastic with you?

Yes, and you still are. Apparently, you have absorbed a lot of abuse on this board.

Quote:

OK let's stop beating around the bush.

You responded to my post, so I already defined the bush. I'll repeat for your benefit:

1) A good god would not punish people for eternity.
2) The xian god punishes people for eternity.
3) Therefore the xian god is not good.

4) Therefore moral people should seek enlightenment through some means other than xianity.

Quote:

A good God is a just God. Sin deserves punishment.
Eternal sin demands eternal punishment.
All sin stems from pride and rebellion, which is the "original" sin and the source of all others. It does not have to be a specific action.

So you agree the xian god punishes people for eternity.
Then the xian god is not a good god.

You also claim we are born sinful.
Innocent : free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil.
A newborn child has no knowledge of evil. A newborn is free from guilt, and has commited no sin (has no pride nor rebellion). Therefore we are born innocent.
Therefore your opinion that we are born sinful is wrong, using your own definition.

I would think murder, theft, etc. would be considered sinful, but by your definition, those acts are not sinful. However, just being born IS sinful.
Therefore the xian god seems more interested in acquiring mindless slave-drones, then in our morality.

A good god would judge us based on our actions and intentions. You have admitted that the xian god does not do this. You have also admitted that the xian god punishes people for enternity, simply because people are born.

So the xian god as you have described, is not good, and is in fact actively evil.

So my conclusion holds. Moral people should seek enlightenment through some other means than xianity.

In addition, based on your definitions, moral people should actively oppose the xian god, because moral people should actively oppose evil.

Quote:

No, I but I do claim its inhabitants will be incorrigible hypercrites and hypocrites and those who refuse to obey God, ever. You're evading the point I think.

Since I defined the point, it's silly to accuse me of evading it. The point is whether a good god would punish people for eternity.

Quote:

If it turns out Christ is God, would you accept his offer and agree to obey him, to be reprogrammmed (as it were) with a "new nature" or not?

If we owe our existence to god, and god is a good god, then I will gladly and joyously follow her.

Meanwhile, I will continue to behave in as ethical and as moral fashion as possible. Is that a problem?

Quote:

(I'll go out on a limb and predict we will now see what this question usually engenders, i.e, inane responses and evasive maneuvers).

Why would you do such a thing?

Rhea · 04-15-2003, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally by Radorth:
In fact I've heard at least two atheists say they would never admit God was right.

Chortle. Too bad they don't allow sig lines here. You cpuld put this in it and save yourself pulling the opinions of TWO PEOPLE out of your arsenal all the time.

How dreary it must be to not gain anything new to use as rebuttal but your two, tired atheists.

Rad, c'mon. Get serious, are you REALLY saying that you don't think two christians could say something that you would resent being attributed as the Voice of Christianity ad nauseum?

Man, you and your mirrors. You just crack me up. You are the best argument for deconversion in the longest ime. Jesus is holding up a mirror to you and he's saying, "AAAUUUGGGH!"

Laughing.
Laughing.

mike_decock · 04-15-2003, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
Man, you and your mirrors. You just crack me up. You are the best argument for deconversion in the longest ime. Jesus is holding up a mirror to you and he's saying, "AAAUUUGGGH!"

And suddenly, Frank Zappa's "Jesus Thinks You're A Jerk" popped into my head, LOL.

Thanks, Rhea.

-Mike...

Rhea · 04-15-2003, 12:30 PM

You're welcome.

Although I _am_ please to see Radorth has graduated from

Atheists say...
to
Many Atheists say...
to
Some Atheists say...
to
"at least two atheists say..."

It's been an engrossing journey.

lpetrich · 04-15-2003, 01:46 PM

LP:
Why does ANYTHING deserve punishment when one can reprogram the offenders so that they never misbehave again?

spurly:
If God did this, he would be negating our free will. This is something he refuses to do.

I kick myself for not having stated that I had predicted this response.

He wants us to choose to love him, and part of loving him is obedience - "If you love me, you will obey my commands".

Why should love need obedience?

We are not robots to be reprogrammed. We are people with whom God desires a relationship of love.

Strangely, Mr. G. has never sent me flowers.

Sorry, I couldn't resist seeming like QoS.

Invader Tak · 04-15-2003, 02:26 PM

Quote:

I thought that "shoving it down your throat" would mean that they were forcibly trying to get someone to accept Jesus - like at gun point or something.

Anybody immediately picture John Ashcroft after reading this?

OK, it was just me then.

Sabine Grant · 04-15-2003, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut
Mike, Good for YOU!!! We've had some similar experiences of major depression and the false hope of happy happy joy joy Christians. I'm glad you've explained things cogently.

So the Christians are not all over the TV? What do I have a choice of watching on Sunday morning? (Before you answer, I do not have cable and do not intend to get it.) One pentecostal preacher, one methodist preacher, one baptist preacher, and the talking heads news shows putting out whatever the government wants to tell us. And two all-Jeezus-all-the-time channels. Indoctrination and conformity.

Do I EVER see any programs about say, the history and concepts of Zoroastrianism? Hinduism? Judaism? Islam? Bahai? Buddhism? Zen? Voodoo? Santeria? African religions? Chinese New Year? Meditation techniques? Native American Spirituality? Or secular humanism? NOPE.

I see local shows on things like "the Treasures of the Vatican" art exhibit. I see local shows that always have a Christian slant, such as Christian funerals for celebrities and fallen policemen. There is never any discussion of the other spiritual communities in a large multicultural city. I see Midnight Mass at St. Peter's Cathedral in Rome as televised by "NBC News". This is news? It's a ceremonial ritual that is followed by millions, but it is also NOT observed by millions more. I only watch it to look at the artwork of bernini and Michelangelo.

This is pretty disgusting. The TV owners don't want people to see that there are other choices in life, they want people to think that the ONLY religion out there is christianity and that is not true.

NOPE. NEVER. None of those.

:banghead:

hello Opera Nut... If you depend on US TV programs to educate yourself on various religions and philosophies, it might be more productive to do so on the Internet or visit your local library. I have seen so many people in the US riveted to their TV set to form their own thoughts.
If we desire ( anyone) to become informed individuals, personal research is a necessity rather than the pre digested information mass media project thru the " small screen".
Oh by the way... in Tampa we have a public channel where " the Atheists of Florida" hold a forum in the evening.

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04-15-2003, 12:30 PM	#117
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	You're welcome. Although I _am_ please to see Radorth has graduated from Atheists say... to Many Atheists say... to Some Atheists say... to "at least two atheists say..." It's been an engrossing journey.

04-15-2003, 01:46 PM	#118
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	LP: Why does ANYTHING deserve punishment when one can reprogram the offenders so that they never misbehave again? spurly: If God did this, he would be negating our free will. This is something he refuses to do. I kick myself for not having stated that I had predicted this response. He wants us to choose to love him, and part of loving him is obedience - "If you love me, you will obey my commands". Why should love need obedience? We are not robots to be reprogrammed. We are people with whom God desires a relationship of love. Strangely, Mr. G. has never sent me flowers. Sorry, I couldn't resist seeming like QoS.

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