doubtingt

The pledge itself is not facist. Coercing kids to pledge allegience to anything they cannot fully
comprehend is facist. In this case, its allegience to "the republic" (and God).
Given the widespread disregard for the founding principles of the republic, it is clear that this ritualized blind allegience does not foster any
kind of productive patriotism or appreciation for
for those principles.
In fact, it seems to only foster a rabid, and unquestioning allegiance to whatever the authorities decide is "american"

4th Generation Atheist

I, um, thought I said high school... Oh well...

doubtingt

I'm aware, but it has little impact.
Plenty of states and schoold districts have
"mandated pledges", such that teachers are instructed to lead the students in the pledge every morning. They get around the "forced" issue by not explicitly requiring that all students
participate. However, you can bet that most teachers just ask students to stand and recite it, without any mention of "If you want to stay seated, you are free to do so."
A teacher asking a child to do something is being "forced" by any reasonable definition.

doubtingt

You did, but my point is that even in high school kids should be encouraged to decide whether they want to pledge allegience to the republic.
Explaining it then having a ritualized pledge every morning is still coercive.

4th Generation Atheist

No hard feelings....

I agree 100% that the Pledge should be more a matter for discussion than for "recitation"; hell, discussion is a pretty American tradition! Either way, I don't see the Xn Right's big insistence on having the Pledge put back (except for my strong suspicion that the point is the undergod part, but that's a different discussion). I'd rather see the focus be on getting the weapons out and the education back in, which is why I think older kids could benefit from a discussion of such things as the Pledge and whether it fits with the concept of loving one's country in a free society...rather like this discussion. I agree with the objection that making people who don't want to say the Pledge set themselves apart and lay tehmeselves open to unfair assumptions and reprisals from teachers/students is unfair. Whether I'd use as strong a term as "fascist", especially characterizing the existence of the Pledge itself as such, I don't know; but on the other hand I've always rather liked the thing. But I can see how asking students who object to stand up and wear the badge in the current atmosphere is cruel and, perhaps, even puts them in danger. Which is why I'd be very careful about organization and coercion.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: 4th Generation Atheist ]</p>

Buffman

doubtingt

Mindless and blind allegience to "the nation"
only counts as patriotism in a facist nation.

I thought that fascism was a government-business dictatorship of the far, belligerent, right. I am more inclined to call the Pledge, in a federal republic, an expression of a jingoistic administration's intent on maintaining order among the masses in a pluralistic and democratic society in an attempt not to be voted out of political power.

Corey Hammer

I don't know about anyone else, but I was required to pass a course on the Constitution in the 8th grade and in high school I had to take a government class where the U.S. Constitution was discussed in depth. This was in an Illinois public high school too.

We even had to create arguments about various court cases using the Constitution as our basis.

Radcliffe Emerson

I'd rather pledge allegiance to the Constitution and burn the flag, than vice-versa.
A flag is just a symbol, to me it's stupid to pledge to that.

Ron Garrett

I agree. At my induction we swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. I'm still taking that oath seriously.

DMB

To a non-American, the daily recital of the Pledge in schools seems pretty odd and exotic.

Mind you, when I started school (publically funded) at the age of 5, I was made to say the Lord's Prayer every day. It certainly didn't mean much to me. I remember some months later arguing with my father that the words went, "Hallow be thy maid" -- i.e. he had a maid called Hallow. I had similar problems with the carol The First Nowell, whose refrain goes "Born is the king of Israel". I thought this referred to our neighbour, whose surname was Bourne.

Basically, I agree that it is nonsense to get children to recite stuff they are unlikely to understand, and much more fruitful to explain and discuss.