doubtingt

I find disturbing that I have not heard a single person anywhere point out that forcing children to pledge allegiance to something they couldn't possibly understand is inherently authoritarian and unamerican.

If they want children to become real patriots, they should have them read and discuss the Constitution and Bill of Rights every morning.
Mindless and blind allegience to "the nation"
only counts as patriotism in a facist nation.

Richiyaado

I have never thought that the pledge is necessarily 'facist' [sic], but perhaps my understanding of the word is different from yours. What do you mean by the word, 'fascist'?

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Richiyaado ]</p>

Krieger

Well, children aren't forced to say the pledge, but via peer pressure they are coerced into saying it.

However, I do agree that having a pledge is completely useless and it is idiotic, nationalistic propaganda.

4th Generation Atheist

I don't know, I had it explained to me so the experience was educational; however, what with the fights with other students about the God bit, a little too "educational"!

I suppose since the standard thing though is to get the students to say it and to refuse explanation---so that the actual message becomes an exercise in the "importance" of blind obedience to authority---this is a pretty good objection. Perhaps if it were done in the context of a high school history or civics class instead... <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

NAaronJ

I think that pledging allegiance to "the republic" can be fascist, but it could just as easily be the opposite case.

It all hinges on what "the republic" is interpreted to mean. It could mean the government (in which case it could be considered fascist), the people, the land, any combination of those, or some definition that I have not mentioned.

Forcing anyone to pledge allegiance to anything is an abuse of federal power IMO, however.

doubtingt

Secular Elation

The Pledge of Allegiance has always bugged me. I don't think it is really fascist, since it is entirely optional. However, I don't see what the benefit is from having everyone in a classroom stand up and recite words at an unliving colored flag.

A true American patriot is one who celebrates and practices American principles. Not one who pledges to a flag.

Krieger

doubtingt, in a mid 1940s ruling the Supreme Court said that people could not be forced to say the pledge.

doubtingt

Explaining what the "republic for which it stands" is great and educational. But keep in mind that this is not a poem, it is a "pledge of allegiance" a kind of swearing of an oath.
Prior to high school these kids aren't capable of really understanding what they are pledging allegiance to, thus its an excercise in blind obedience.
Also, this republic is founded on free thought and children should be encouraged to learn about and understand what the constitutional principals are and then decide via their own conscience whether they want to pledge allegience.

I have enough confidence in the virtues of those principles to think that most young adults would decide to pledge allegience to those principles without being coerced from kindergarden on.

Richiyaado

If "the republic" means a government where sovereignty resides in all citizens who, in turn, elect a legislative body responsible for making laws, then I don't see such a government as fascist.

If the purpose of the Pledge is to acknowledge that the republic is lawfully constituted, and that the people we have elected to office are authorized to carry out their legislative and administrative functions, I don't necessarily have a problem with it. Though I certainly agree it's important that children have some sense of what they're pledging actually means, particularly if it's going to be mandated.