Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 08-19-2002, 01:42 PM

Just today I witnessed some things that remind me why I reject the Christian concept of a benevolent god:

This morning, I was at my mother-in-law's house observing a cicada emergence. Or rather, we were observing the post-emergence, and there were dozens of cicada shed skins all over the tree trunks, with the adults singing in the tops of the trees. High up one trunk, my partner and I found a cicada that had apparently died during molting; we knocked it down to take a closer look, and were shocked to find that it was still alive, several days after they had all emerged from the ground. Half-molted, it had somehow become trapped and its soft new exoskeleton had hardened, trapping it forever within the nymphal skin. Only one leg was free, and it tried vainly to grasp with it, and vibrated as it tried to "sing". My partner commented how horrible it was that after 17 years of living underground among the tree roots it had missed its only chance for its short period of time as an adult in the open air with wings, and to mate to reproduce.

We also witnessed cicada killers (a large predatory wasp) buzzing around, hunting for cicadas to sting, paralyze, and drag back to their burrows, to be slowly eaten alive by the wasp's larva.

Upon returning home this afternoon, I saw a struggle in the bushes in my garden. When I looked more closely, I discovered that a tiger swallowtail butterfly had been captured by a praying mantis. As I watched, the mantis slowly ate the butterfly alive as it continued to struggle to escape.

Do we expect nature to be benevolent? No sensible person does--we know too much about disease, and natural disasters. We expect things to suffer because that is simply the natural order of things. And these things, and all the suffering that exists in the world, make perfect sense if we view nature and evolution as processes devoid of consciousness, and certainly devoid of benevolence of purpose.

So does any Christian care to tell me what purposes these things serve, and how they glorify a benevolent God?

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

Doubting Didymus · 08-19-2002, 02:52 PM

God is forever unknowable, and his plan is beyond mere humans forever.

Ha! Gotcha!

RogerLeeCooke · 08-19-2002, 03:05 PM

It's Hobbes and Hume combined. Hobbes is known for describing nature as "red in tooth and claw," an accurate description, as you point out. Hume, after demolishing all kinds of faith, including faith in the law of cause and effect, said that he relied entirely on "carelessness and inattention" to get through life.

I'm sure that's correct. Some years ago, when my daughter began teaching at a Quaker school, I bought her an antique book, a Quaker tract from 1820, in which the author pointed out that we have only to look at the wonderful beneficence of Nature to know that a good God is behind it all. As perfect counterpoint, that very day I was watching a documentary on grizzly bears, in which it was stated that a male grizzly bear will crush the skull of a female and eat her cubs. Ain't Nature grand?

Of course the fundies will say all this happens because Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before that, grizzly bears ate only whole-wheat granola. And the PETA people will say it's only because we human beings have destroyed their natural habitat that grizzlies engage in this aberrant behavior.

08-19-2002, 03:18 PM

Speaking of bears, look at what happened this afternoon in NY: <a href="http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/StoryFolder/story_1364547158_html" target="_blank">Bear kills infant</a>

Further proof that a loving god does not exist.

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]

MrDarwin · 08-20-2002, 07:04 AM

From <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000558" target="_blank">another thread</a> just posted in this forum:

Quote:

Originally posted by pdwblw:
The Bible tells us of a loving God who loves all people and sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins. This same Jesus rose again from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father. Man chose to sin against God. God does not force anyone to love Him. He gives us the choice. He did not have to send His Son, He chose to because He loves us. He loves us enough to allow us to go to hell if we so choose. He doesn't want us to be forced to love Him and serve Him. What a loving, wonderful God. That is the God we can serve.

The problem is, anybody can see with their own eyes that the world around us shows no evidence of this "loving, wonderful God". What we know about the world around us is in direct conflict with what Christians claim the Bible tells us. Is it any wonder so many of us have difficulty believing these claims?

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

WJ · 08-20-2002, 07:32 AM

Mr. Darwin!

Maybe you can help me. God is a logically necessary Being. Why is that so hard to understand?

In trying to answer your original question, should we not see what logic has to say? (Isn't that [logic] what a no-god belief is based upon?)

Anyway, in your view, what is wrong with that answer if I am trying to 'convince' you?

Walrus

Lord Asriel · 08-20-2002, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RogerLeeCooke:
Hobbes is known for describing nature as "red in tooth and claw,"

I always thought that was Darwin. Was Darwin quoting Hobbes?

Vibr8gKiwi · 08-20-2002, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
God is a logically necessary Being. Why is that so hard to understand?

In trying to answer your original question, should we not see what logic has to say?

I just grabbed my old college Logic and Critical Reasoning textbook and I can't find God as a logically necessity anywhere. Can I get a reference here? Someone might think you're just pulling "logical necessities" out of the air.

MrDarwin · 08-20-2002, 07:40 AM

The phrase "nature red in tooth and claw" comes from the poem <a href="http://charon.sfsu.edu/tennyson/inmemoriam.html" target="_blank">In Memoriam A.H.H.</a> by Alfred, Lord Tennyson. It is widely quoted, generally out of context, and usually at odds with its original intent. The poem actually predates Darwin's "Origin of Species".

(edited to provide better link)

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

seanie · 08-20-2002, 07:43 AM

Posted by WJ elsewhere

Quote:

(A)You guy's are committed to the logical inconsistency of atheism...,

(B) Koy, have you ever figured out what logical necessity means yet?

(C) I have faith, but it isn't in your logic! And that's because all human logic, ultimately, remains fallible

So apparently God's a logical necessity but all logic is flawed.

Well that's me convinced.

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: seanie ]

08-19-2002, 01:42 PM	#1
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Convince me there IS a God Just today I witnessed some things that remind me why I reject the Christian concept of a benevolent god: This morning, I was at my mother-in-law's house observing a cicada emergence. Or rather, we were observing the post-emergence, and there were dozens of cicada shed skins all over the tree trunks, with the adults singing in the tops of the trees. High up one trunk, my partner and I found a cicada that had apparently died during molting; we knocked it down to take a closer look, and were shocked to find that it was still alive, several days after they had all emerged from the ground. Half-molted, it had somehow become trapped and its soft new exoskeleton had hardened, trapping it forever within the nymphal skin. Only one leg was free, and it tried vainly to grasp with it, and vibrated as it tried to "sing". My partner commented how horrible it was that after 17 years of living underground among the tree roots it had missed its only chance for its short period of time as an adult in the open air with wings, and to mate to reproduce. We also witnessed cicada killers (a large predatory wasp) buzzing around, hunting for cicadas to sting, paralyze, and drag back to their burrows, to be slowly eaten alive by the wasp's larva. Upon returning home this afternoon, I saw a struggle in the bushes in my garden. When I looked more closely, I discovered that a tiger swallowtail butterfly had been captured by a praying mantis. As I watched, the mantis slowly ate the butterfly alive as it continued to struggle to escape. Do we expect nature to be benevolent? No sensible person does--we know too much about disease, and natural disasters. We expect things to suffer because that is simply the natural order of things. And these things, and all the suffering that exists in the world, make perfect sense if we view nature and evolution as processes devoid of consciousness, and certainly devoid of benevolence of purpose. So does any Christian care to tell me what purposes these things serve, and how they glorify a benevolent God? [ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

08-19-2002, 03:18 PM	#4
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	Speaking of bears, look at what happened this afternoon in NY: <a href="http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/StoryFolder/story_1364547158_html" target="_blank">Bear kills infant</a> Further proof that a loving god does not exist. [ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

08-20-2002, 07:40 AM	#9
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	The phrase "nature red in tooth and claw" comes from the poem <a href="http://charon.sfsu.edu/tennyson/inmemoriam.html" target="_blank">In Memoriam A.H.H.</a> by Alfred, Lord Tennyson. It is widely quoted, generally out of context, and usually at odds with its original intent. The poem actually predates Darwin's "Origin of Species". (edited to provide better link) [ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

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08-19-2002, 02:52 PM	#2
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	God is forever unknowable, and his plan is beyond mere humans forever. Ha! Gotcha!

08-19-2002, 03:05 PM	#3
RogerLeeCooke Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Burlington, Vermont, USA Posts: 177	It's Hobbes and Hume combined. Hobbes is known for describing nature as "red in tooth and claw," an accurate description, as you point out. Hume, after demolishing all kinds of faith, including faith in the law of cause and effect, said that he relied entirely on "carelessness and inattention" to get through life. I'm sure that's correct. Some years ago, when my daughter began teaching at a Quaker school, I bought her an antique book, a Quaker tract from 1820, in which the author pointed out that we have only to look at the wonderful beneficence of Nature to know that a good God is behind it all. As perfect counterpoint, that very day I was watching a documentary on grizzly bears, in which it was stated that a male grizzly bear will crush the skull of a female and eat her cubs. Ain't Nature grand? Of course the fundies will say all this happens because Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before that, grizzly bears ate only whole-wheat granola. And the PETA people will say it's only because we human beings have destroyed their natural habitat that grizzlies engage in this aberrant behavior.

08-20-2002, 07:32 AM	#6
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Mr. Darwin! Maybe you can help me. God is a logically necessary Being. Why is that so hard to understand? In trying to answer your original question, should we not see what logic has to say? (Isn't that [logic] what a no-god belief is based upon?) Anyway, in your view, what is wrong with that answer if I am trying to 'convince' you? Walrus

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