RED DAVE

From AtomSmasher:

Yes we did, and you lost that argument: you have yet to produce a demonstration that racism is not endemic to capitalism, and you just don't get it. So, let me reiterate one more time:

1) Racism is not an exclusive feature of capitalism. Other social systems are also guilty of it.

2) Capitalism has, since its inception, systematically used racist ideology and virulent racist practices, such as slavery, genocide and various forms of discrimination as part and parcel of its ongoing practice.

3) To say that racism is not essential to capitalism is to say that capitalism's own history is not essential to.

4) Many forms of racism are still prevalent in capitalism, including an indifference to its effect on people of color of the world.

No, it's not ludicrous. To live off the benefits of racism; to deny its effects on others; to refuse to combat; all these make you a racist. Librarians are frequently racist. Libertarians, well, draw you own conclusions.

Where is my intellectual deceit? I am asserting two positions which you vehemently disagree with because they expose you and other libs as racist:

1) Capitalism, which you love, is racist to the core and has been from the start.

2) By participating in capitalism and not "being part of the solution" to racism you are racist.

Using words like "ludicrous" and "obsessesed" do not substitute for debate. Also, with regard to affirmative action, you used the loaded term "red herring."(Pun intended?) That's merely an assertion, not a debate point.

RED DAVE

AtomSmasher

Wrong. You are making the assertion that racism is inherent to capitalism and have completely failed to support your claim. Capitalism is system of rules regarding the free exchange of values and has nothing to do with human biases.

I'm glad you agree.

Humans have, since their emergence, systematically used racist ideology and virulent racist practices, such as slavery, genocide and various forms of discrimination as part and parcel of their ongoing practice. There was never a time in history that this was challenged until the creation of social governance systems that protect human individual rights. Capitalism and representative government are the only political and economic systems that have proven themselves capable of doing so.

False analogy. Conversely, to say that mass murder is not essential to communism is to say that communism's own history is not essential to. How does racism occuring within capitalist economies dictate that it is essential to it's nature? Similarly, how does mass slavery occuring within communist economies establish that slavery is a pillar of communism?

This just doesn't make sense. How can capitalism be indifferent to a person? Local governments may be indifferent to their citizens. People practicing capitalism, no matter what color they are, are free to exchange goods and ideas as equals.

If, through inaction, someone is a racist; then almost everyone is racist, including librarians, libertarians, socialists, muslims, and you. If capitalism is racist, then you are supporting racism by living in a capitalist system, paying bills to a capitalist government, buying groceries from a capitalist shopkeeper, and arguing the merits of capitalism through the internet connection of a capitalist internet service provider. Simply ascribing moral superiority to oneself changes nothing. By your own definition, you, sir, are a racist.

RED DAVE

One more, last time. If you don't get it AtomSmasher, then you don't. Hopefully, others will.

This is approximately equivalent to saying that the effects of the rules of an institution have nothing to do with the institution. If the rules of the US prison system have (and they do) promote homosexual rape, we may conclude, after awhile, that this is a part of the system. And I'm being a minimalist, because institutionalized, legal, racism is a feature of capitalism.

ONE NIGHT THE LEOPARD'S BROKE INTO THE TEMPLE. AND THEY DRANK THE SACRAMENTAL WIND. EVERYONE WAS SCANDALIZED. THEN IT HAPPENED AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN. EVENTUALLY, THEY MADE IT PART OF THE RITUAL. (Franz Kafka)

Get it? A feature of a system that has been part of the system from the beginning is part of the system. It is not an accident, a flaw or a mistake. And yes, mass murder is part of Stalinism (Communism) (Totalitarianist, notwithstanding). Just because racism is also part of other systems (Communism is racist), doesn't preclude racism from being part of capitalism. (Other systems use money, but money is an integral part of capitalism.)

About history. That which is present in history is part of history and part of that which created the history. Capitalism is not an idea or a set of rules. It is a living system, with a history. I, personally, have a history. I have been a socialist since I was 15 years old. You can safely say that socialism is part of me. I have a track record, and so does capitalism.

With regard to capitalism and racism, as a Jew who lost about 1/3 of his family in the Holocaust, I think I can safely say that capitalism's record with regard to racism is pretty awful. African Americans and Native Americans,Latinos, etc. will have their own claims.

Yes, I am. There are many times when I have, through my own selfishness or desire for self-protection acceded to racism, and, on occasion, I have actively engaged in racism practices, much to my shame. And, as a relatively privileged Euro, I daily enjoy the fruit of racism, preferential treatment, just from the color of my skin. I try to deal with this, one day at a time.

How about you?

(Sorry this was a little disjointed.)

RED DAVE

Dr. Retard

If instituting some political system (or approximations thereof) predictably yields some problem, then you can say that the problem is essential or endemic to that political system. This issue is not settled merely by the historical record of systems that have approximated the system under scrutiny.

So, does instituting the capitalist legal system (or approximations thereof) predictably yield racism? That question has not been addressed so far as I can see.

"Capitalism is not an idea or a set of rules"? OK, then sorry, I'm talking about schmapitalism. Schmapitalism is an idea, a set of rules. Does instituting the schmapitalist legal system (or approximations thereof) predictably yield racism?

RED DAVE

Dr. Retard:

Find an uninhabited island somewhere, establish schmapitalism, and let us know how it comes out.

Until then, we are not talking about an ideal, we are talking about actual behavior. And the best indication of future behavior is past behavior. The past of behavior of capitalism (and its present) is thoroughly racist. So, unless the bourgeoisie has had a change of heart this Mothers Day night, I fully expect capitalism to be racism tomorrow morning.

Seriously, there is a methodological problem here. You Libertarians seem to think that you can invent, imagine or conceive of an ideal capitalism without, say, racism, and that is capitalism. This would be equivalent to Communists saying they can conceive of Communism without its horrors, so what's the problem? (Except for Totalitarianist, who loves the problems.)

This has come up before in other debates about Libertarianism. You cannot wish the flaws of capitalism away. I, as a Marxist, have to deal with the tainted history of my belief system, and demonstrate to the world how one of the worst societies in history came out of a flawed but socialist revolution. If I can't do that, I may as well read the Manifesto in the john at night and jerk off to the preamble.

RED DAVE

Loren Pechtel

Red Dave:

You are making the mistake of saying that neutrality on racial issues is racism. It's not. There is a middle ground!

Unlike what the idiot-in-chief says, you don't have to be either for or against.

Dr. Retard

Past behavior is indeed the best indicator of future behavior. But you can't use such a ham-handed approach to interpreting the evidence. Political realities are extremely complicated, with umpteen-bazillion different factors. So you can't just say, "capitalism and racism have always gone hand in hand, therefore, capitalism will always be accompanied by racism". Just as you can't say, "sexism and potato chip companies have always gone hand in hand, therefore, potato chip companies will always be accompanied by sexism". Not all correlations point to causal relations. That's why you have to come up with some theory that makes sense of the evidence, and then use the theory to speculate about other possibilities. You need political theory to speculate about political possibilities.

Quote:

Seriously, there is a methodological problem here. You Libertarians seem to think that you can invent, imagine or conceive of an ideal capitalism without, say, racism, and that is capitalism. This would be equivalent to Communists saying they can conceive of Communism without its horrors, so what's the problem? (Except for Totalitarianist, who loves the problems.) This has come up before in other debates about Libertarianism. You cannot wish the flaws of capitalism away. I, as a Marxist, have to deal with the tainted history of my belief system, and demonstrate to the world how one of the worst societies in history came out of a flawed but socialist revolution. If I can't do that, I may as well read the Manifesto in the john at night and jerk off to the preamble.

The instituting of Communist (or schmommunist) legal systems will predictably yield poverty and political oppression. If I want to support this claim, I have to give an explanation of why this is true. I can't merely point to history. I need theory. That's why people who try to support this claim tend to appeal to economics and political theory. Diminished incentives to productivity, calculation problems, principal-agent problems, etc.

So if you want to support the claim that capitalist (schmapitalist) legal systems will predictably yield racism, you'd better give an explanation. Merely pointing to history is not enough, especially when racism is just a pervasive problem. History is the best evidence, don't get me wrong, but it needs theoretical interpretation.

Misso

It's unfair to say that capitalists support racism without mentioning that supporters of [I]any[I] system support racism. Naturally, this includes capilism, but it's not limited to capitalism. Slavery isn't so much a part of capitalism as it is of human nature, and with that of every human system - including capitalism.

As for slaves in the New World: they weren't slaves of capitalists, early on. The early settlers in the New World spent the money they made instead of investing it back into what generated the money. This back-investing is a vital part of capitalism, without it, there is no capitalism.

Eikonoklast

It's unfair to say it SUPPORTS it all. It makes no distinction between black and white. Especially when you consider that this is supposed to be within the context of a libertarian type government, which strictly prohibits slavery as an infringement on individual rights. That's why I nor any other libertarian can figure out what the hell Red Dave is talking about.

peacenik

originally posted by Loren Petchel
Visit South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, or Mississippi, and tell me that the battle against racism has been won.

Unfortunately, the battle has been far from being won. Discrimination is still widespread, particularly in portions of the South as well as portions of the North(i.e. Detroit). If you can't recognize this, then you need to get your head out of the sand.

See these links for just a little evidence of the evidence out that that proves that racism unfortunately still persists:

1. http://www.urbanthinktank.org/yourname.cfm

2. http://www.usatoday.com/news/vault/nv96023.htm

3. http://www.fdp.dk/uk/racism.php

4. http://www.amnesty.ca/usa/racism.htm

5. http://www.counterpunch.org/brinker0813.html

6. http://www.afsc.org/hipp/news/HIPP1.HTM