Magus55

Lucifer and the fallen angels that joined him in rebellion against God.

Rhea

And Elvis.

Stephen T-B

“How many of you here have strong doubts about your beliefs? I mean does anyone hold out the possibility that in fact, christianity is true? Or (in the case of theists) naturalism is true?”

My dictionary defines Naturalism as: “...3. The belief that the natural world is all that exists. “
Well, we know for a certainty that it does exist so to that extent belief is not required. We’ve a firm foundation to build on here.
If, however, we cannot accept that the natural world is all there is, then we are at liberty to believe absolutely ANYTHING we like, including the divinity of Jesus Christ.
And what’s important to realise now is that no belief system is any more or any less sensible than any other, which is contrary to what some of them teach. So Christianity and Islam decree that they are the only belief systems which can get you a place in Heaven - or have you sent to Hell. But these aren’t truths vouchsafed by an independent arbiter to which we can appeal; they are merely elements of the belief systems on behalf of which they make their claims.

So Corso, if you are indeed doubtful as to whether naturalism is true, roam through the available religions, sects and cults and take your pick. And when you’ve found one which you think suits you, the really good thing is that you need only take its religious texts as a general guide because everyone who worships a god has inside his or her own head a personalised notion of what that god is really like and what he/she or it really requires.
Gods not being part of the physical, natural universe, you’re guess as to what they are like is as good as anyone else’s. Or better, should you experience a divine revelation. (If you don’t, you can always pretend to have had one because if you sculpt it so that it fits in with accepted notions of the god who provided it, your fellow believers won’t challenge it. You might even find yourself becoming rich and powerful - and that’s another really wonderful thing about religion.)

Starboy

Stephen T-B, if only that were the entire gist of it. What they are doing is claiming that the unnatural world that they posit is real and does exist. Even thought they claim it exists they do no allow it to be held to the same level of evidence that we have for the natural world. They are actually playing an awful mind game on their adherents, since they tell them that there is a reality that is not real and they should ignore what is known to be real in favor of this unreality. Very sick.

Starboy

Eric Starnes

Hmm, in the last year i have gone from an Objectivist, to an objectivist, to a secular humanist, to a misanthrope, to atheist, agnostic, and now finally nihilist. In mostly that order. Now i am starting to doubt that the search for truth is worth it.

Which sucks because thats about all i have left.

Corso

Unfortunately, they do get to me. The concept of hell is just to terrifying to ignore. I recently saw a special on TLC about Near-Death Experiences. There was one segment about an atheist who had an heart attack and had a very bad NDE. He recounted having been sent to hell where he was devoured by demons! The guy was so frightened that he converted to christianty and later joined the ministry. Now, I know this sounds like something out of a stupid Chick tract but the man seemed to genuinely believe his experience was real.
I know all about the attempts by skeptics to give scientific explanations for NDE’s but I have yet to be convinced that they are right.

Salmon of Doubt

What about if I made up a story about seeing myself being abducted by alien greys and tortured for not believing in them just as I flatlined? Would that be too terrifying to ignore? What about all the other religions with the idea of hell or punishment? Just because some people believe in it doesn't make it true.

If these people who saw visions of hell had never been exposed to Christianity or the idea of hell or punishment or even thing like volcanoes or the idea of heat under the ground, then it would be more substantial. But the truth is the images produced by the brain always derive from something. Some people who see demons are actually experiencing a type of epilepsy.

If more people saw these visions and they were commonplace, that would also be more evidence. But the odd unsubstatiated testimony from someone in a traumatic situation is NOT something you should use as evidence to base your life on!

I used to have a few moments of doubt, but that was before I decided to study science at higher levels. Oh and read Douglas Adams' books. I recommend the book I take my name from- The Salmon Of Doubt- where he explains exactly why he is an atheist and will never doubt his position. And he never has. Keep reading scientific books like the Blind Watchmaker, and keep browsing these forums. I find it hard to see how anyone here could have doubts about the falsehood of Christianity while being surrounded by articulate intelligent arguments ripping it to pieces so thoroughly!

Edited to add- Don't fall in to their trap. Hell is designed to make the unbeliever afraid, and convert that way. If the benevolent Christian God existed, he wouldn't need hell to scare people into loving him.

Philosoft

Interesting. I have long found NDEs to be rather mundane, especially in light of more recent ketamine studies. Why is it so hard to accept that NDEs are mental artifacts?

Starboy

I guess because it is so easy to accept a supernatural explanation with no evidence to back it up over a natural explanation with evidence. Go figure.

Starboy

Stephen T-B

Corso - have you heard that non-Christians in many countries have what we might consider to be "heavenly" near death experiences.
How's that if only believers in Christ's divinty are supposed to get through the pearly gates?