Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 07-06-2002, 12:44 AM

Brace yourselves for a new assault on separation - the claim that it became popular because of anti-Catholic sentiment, and especially due to the influence of the KKK.

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/06/national/06BELI.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/06/national/06BELI.html</a>

Quote:

On June 30, Harvard University Press published an extensive study by Professor Hamburger, straightforwardly titled "Separation of Church and State." . . .

But separation of church and state, contrary to what Professor Hamburger calls a "modern myth," was never the ideal invoked by either the framers of the Constitution or dissenting religious minorities like Baptists and Quakers ...

It is well known that Thomas Jefferson, in an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, characterized the First Amendment as "building a wall of separation between church and state." It is less well known that the Danbury Baptists, who had written Jefferson in hopes of getting ammunition to use in their battle against laws favoring the state's Congregationalist majority, quietly shelved the presidential missive. The metaphor of separation, let alone a wall of separation, suggested a distance, a lack of contact, an incompatibility, even an antagonism, between religion and government that sat all too awkwardly with these believers.

...

By mid-19th century, many Americans were in full-blown rebellion not against religion as such but against church structures and authorities. True religion was individual and antidogmatic, independent not just of state pressures but of church pressures, too. This attitude, as it so happened, converged with nativist anti-Catholicism. The Catholic Church, after all, was the very model of structure, authority and dogma.

In 1840, when Catholics began claiming equal rights to public school funds in New York City, Professor Hamburger writes, "this presumptuous demand shocked Protestants, many of whom responded by asserting separation of church and state as a constitutional principle."

For many Protestants, such separation did not prohibit Bible reading in public schools, Sabbath laws and other government links to religion. These were seen as nondenominational practices simply of individuals rather than a church, and therefore not threatening.

Eventually, nonreligious and openly anti-Christian secularists protested this kind of inconsistency. Genuine separation, they insisted, should rule out chaplains in legislatures, prisons and the armed forces, bar Bible reading in schools, require taxation of church property, forbid restrictions on Sunday commerce and so on.

Interestingly, at first these secularists did not claim to find this thoroughgoing separation in the First Amendment but, with allies like President Ulysses S. Grant, campaigned in the 1870's to detail separation in another constitutional amendment. Only when that effort failed did they switch to a strategy of constitutional interpretation.

The "modern myth of separation," Professor Hamburger writes, "omits any discussion of nativist sentiment in America and, above all, omits any mention of the Ku Klux Klan," which made separation of church and state a central element in its anti-Catholicism.

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674007344/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Separation of Church and State by Philip Hamburger</a>

RufusAtticus · 07-06-2002, 01:19 AM

Well, that article is from the "Belief" section of the paper. I'm sure we've all noticed that "Religion/Belief" sections of papers tend to have more guest writers and fact-checking problems than the rest of the paper. This article doesn't suprise me a bit.

~~RvFvS~~

Buffman · 07-06-2002, 01:39 AM

(SIGH!)

"Mann[Horace] also set a pattern by excluding ' all dogmatical theology and sectarianism from public school instruction. [Late 1830's early 40's] This, however, did not mean that public schools were free of nondogmatic Protestantism....Indeed, Archbishop John Hughes in New York City thought the public schools in the 1840's were so clearly Protestant that public monies should be granted to Roman Catholic schools as well. When he failed to win that argument, he turned to what seemed the only alternative "a parochial school system for Catholic boys and girls." ("Church and State in America", by Edwin S. Gaustad, Oxford University Press. New York, 1999, pg. 84)

Obviously, as the wall of separation between church and state is eroded, the never ending religious wars for the minds of children will continue to worsen and further divide our once united nation into a Christian battlefield for government support and taxpayer funding for every manner of sectarian undertaking. Without a strict interpretation of religion and government separation, America is on the path to what Europe once was, and still is in Northern Ireland.... A Christian slaughter house...while anti-Americans watch and gleefully cheer. If America fails to rid itself of extremist Protestant dogma and lovingly embrace "all" citizens under the constitutionally uniting goals set out clearly and beautifully in the Preamble, then fully expect those who form organizations like the one listed below to become the leaders of this once magnificent example of freedom of conscience, liberty, democracy and equal opportunity for all.

<a href="http://sun.menloschool.org/~sportman/ethnic/individual/kkk/" target="_blank">http://sun.menloschool.org/~sportman/ethnic/individual/kkk/</a>

GaryP · 07-06-2002, 03:25 AM

From several things I have read, I think that an element of catholic -- protestant bickering was involved in some previous separation issues.

In fact, I think the original name of Americans United was Protestants and Other Americans United for Separation of Church and State (doesn't exactly roll off the tongue).

A concern I have had for a long time is that the new found eccumenical movement may weaken the separation cause. I think it is already happening. 30 - 40 years ago, the evangelicals would never have been allies with catholics in the school voucher battle.

It probably all started with integration of public schools. Many white protestants took their kids out of public schools so they would not be forced to go with African-American children. Now these folks are friends with catholics so that each group can get govt. money.

And many protestants send kids to catholic schools if they have no other choice.

Toto · 07-06-2002, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GaryP:
<strong>

In fact, I think the original name of Americans United was Protestants and Other Americans United for Separation of Church and State ...</strong>

You're right about that. I found a number of references to the original name and <a href="http://www.family.org/cforum/citizenmag/features/a0010700.html" target="_blank">this hit piece from AFA on Barry Lynn</a>.

They filed an amicus brief in the Lemon case.

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07-06-2002, 01:19 AM	#2
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Well, that article is from the "Belief" section of the paper. I'm sure we've all noticed that "Religion/Belief" sections of papers tend to have more guest writers and fact-checking problems than the rest of the paper. This article doesn't suprise me a bit. ~~RvFvS~~

07-06-2002, 01:39 AM	#3
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	(SIGH!) "Mann[Horace] also set a pattern by excluding ' all dogmatical theology and sectarianism from public school instruction. [Late 1830's early 40's] This, however, did not mean that public schools were free of nondogmatic Protestantism....Indeed, Archbishop John Hughes in New York City thought the public schools in the 1840's were so clearly Protestant that public monies should be granted to Roman Catholic schools as well. When he failed to win that argument, he turned to what seemed the only alternative "a parochial school system for Catholic boys and girls." ("Church and State in America", by Edwin S. Gaustad, Oxford University Press. New York, 1999, pg. 84) Obviously, as the wall of separation between church and state is eroded, the never ending religious wars for the minds of children will continue to worsen and further divide our once united nation into a Christian battlefield for government support and taxpayer funding for every manner of sectarian undertaking. Without a strict interpretation of religion and government separation, America is on the path to what Europe once was, and still is in Northern Ireland.... A Christian slaughter house...while anti-Americans watch and gleefully cheer. If America fails to rid itself of extremist Protestant dogma and lovingly embrace "all" citizens under the constitutionally uniting goals set out clearly and beautifully in the Preamble, then fully expect those who form organizations like the one listed below to become the leaders of this once magnificent example of freedom of conscience, liberty, democracy and equal opportunity for all. <a href="http://sun.menloschool.org/~sportman/ethnic/individual/kkk/" target="_blank">http://sun.menloschool.org/~sportman/ethnic/individual/kkk/</a>

07-06-2002, 03:25 AM	#4
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	From several things I have read, I think that an element of catholic -- protestant bickering was involved in some previous separation issues. In fact, I think the original name of Americans United was Protestants and Other Americans United for Separation of Church and State (doesn't exactly roll off the tongue). A concern I have had for a long time is that the new found eccumenical movement may weaken the separation cause. I think it is already happening. 30 - 40 years ago, the evangelicals would never have been allies with catholics in the school voucher battle. It probably all started with integration of public schools. Many white protestants took their kids out of public schools so they would not be forced to go with African-American children. Now these folks are friends with catholics so that each group can get govt. money. And many protestants send kids to catholic schools if they have no other choice.

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