Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Anunnaki · 06-07-2002, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fando:


Would you say the same of the other American who was beheaded by the Abu Sayaff? His name was Guillermo Sobedo. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1595000/1595098.stm" target="_blank">He was on vacation</a>.

No. Sobedo was on vacation there minding his own business. He wasn`t trying to convert sinners into believeing bullshit mythology.

RufusAtticus · 06-07-2002, 02:41 PM

This didn't happen to them because they're Missionaries. It happened because they're Americans.

These people have died, and their death should not be used to show why missionaries are wrong. Start another thread if anyone wants to do that.

~~RvFvS~~

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]

Straight Hate · 06-07-2002, 02:55 PM

Maybe the religion haa nothing to do with the killings, but it *was the reason for them being there. Ttravelling to an area that numerous sources have said "stay out" about with two children back home isn't the most responsible choice you could've made (religion not being *any* issue in the matter).

Edited to add: No one likes seeing someone else die, but the fact is, no matter what you do, you're choices come with a disclaimer that there are simply no guarentees. I grieve for the children, but am I wrong to feel no pain for the deceased?

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kathall ]

GaryP · 06-07-2002, 05:09 PM

The deaths are truly terrible. And no matter why they were there, they did not deserve to be kidnapped or held for so many months or to die.

My interest is in the way their the American's death will be treated by the govt. and the media.

Remember when the two young ladies were rescued from Afghanistan? They were at the White House and the media were happy to air their opinion that their rescue was a miracle from God.

Now that this gentleman has been killed, will anybody related to the case blame God? I doubt it.

The Big Guy always gets good press. He can't lose!

Bree · 06-07-2002, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by abe smith:
Many persons die every day. Many persons die by violence of one sort & another every day. Many persons die very unpleasant deaths every day. Many persons who die every day leave dependents behind them who need to be cared-for. They are all equally dead. And perhaps my "position" is -- oh, heck; John Donne said it centuries ago. I say, all lives are of equal value; and you don't have to invent a "gawd" to make that a human fact; and in death/ having become dead, we are all equal. This is of course my opinion. Are there any human assertions wh/ are NOT *opinions*?

What Abe said.

Triple Six · 06-08-2002, 02:51 AM

The missionaries were misguided fools but they did not deserve to die as a result of yet more islam inspired crime and murder. When are people going to focus on the root cause of these deaths?

What has the response of the islamic community been?

Panta Pei · 06-08-2002, 04:04 AM

I would have much rather heard the obnoxious gloating that it was 'God's Miracle' (tm) that all hostages had survived a successful rescue.

To hear it was 'God's Plan' (tm) now just makes my stomach turn.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Panta Pei ]

One of the last sane · 06-08-2002, 05:32 AM

Quote:

What the hell were these 2 idiot missionaries doing in a country known for kidnapings when they have three children at home.

Well said! Grossly irresponsible of them.

Maybe at some level they were just taking a vacation from their kids but had to make it a missionary trip in order to make it virtuous?

Ruy Lopez · 06-08-2002, 05:34 AM

from Dangin

nly four Abu Sayyef killed in the raid. It was almost tit-for-tat. This is nothing to celebrate or gloat over.
-----------

Four Abu Sayyaf killed and 7 army rangers wounded because they could not fire at will. Abu Sayyaf originated in Afghanistan as mujaheedins fighting the USSR invasion. The were reported in Phil. media as financed by the US and Saudi Arabia. This is where the Bin Ladin connection is assumed. When the group returned to Southern Phils, they found it profitable first to rob and then kidnap for ransom. They are NOT RELIGIOUS.
============

from Annunaki:
Originally posted by Fluffy:
What the hell were these 2 idiot missionaries doing in a country known for kidnapings when they have three children at home.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They were there for no other reasons than to advance their religion. I`ve been seeing stories about this for months on the news and I don`t have much pity for these people.
I do feel bad for their family,but I`ve seen their family members many times on TV backing up their parents "mission".

They had no business being there and have no one to blame but themselves.
---------------

There are all sorts of Christian sects doing missionary work in Phils. The most aggressive are Baptists and born again groups primarily because "business" seems excellent. Catholicism which is 80% of the population is losing appeal and the emotionalism associated with fundies could be attracting 15-20% of the people.

The Burnhams were kidnapped in a rich man's resort in the company of rich Filipinos. They were hundreds of miles away from the A. Sayyaf stronghold island at the Southern tip of the country. Their "parish" area is among Christians far far away from muslims which are found in the South. Only local and foreign Catholic priests dare to operate in predominantly muslim areas.
================

from Rufus Atticus:
This didn't happen to them because they're Missionaries. It happened because they're Americans
----------------

Not exactly. All the guests at the Las Palmas resort were taken since the assumption is they were all well-to-do; about 18 guests all in all. Being American is a bonus not for political reasons but because it is assumed they will pay in US$ and are rich. The bandits did not know they were missionaries.
================

from Proud Atheist:
The missionaries were misguided fools but they did not deserve to die as a result of yet more islam inspired crime and murder. When are people going to focus on the root cause of these deaths?
-------------

In this particular case, you'll have to believe me. The media, Phil. and US gov't want to present this as Islam vs. the West for their own reasons. Abu Sayyaf has been long disillusioned with Islam. They react to gold and would readily kidnap a wealthy Imam or son of Allah if they see one. I give you a hint. The US wants to portray the Abu Sayyaf as Bin Laden supported because they probably think they can achieve media victory over an insignificant small group in some faraway place. The Phil. gov't wants US weapons, money and business that stirs up the local province.

The Burnhams were unfortunate victims in the wrong place and time. They were serious evangelists and were not here primarily for money. Many American fundy missionaries make a killing; many do not and are pitifully short of funds. It depends on the territory.

sullster · 06-08-2002, 02:18 PM

We in the US, have to consider the fact that one of the reasons we are hated is because of fundy missionaries. They go into countries which have established religions and sometimes ancient traditions and spout their fundamentalist protestantism. It is outrageous and obviously offends many people.

These foolish missionaries compound the problems by venturing into areas where there are political power struggles going on and just mess things up. Granted, the Islamic fanatics are not better, but they do live there. These lily-white anglo-saxon types go into these countries and just piss people off with their mind-numbling bible ideologies.

Sorry to hear about a man's violent death. He would be alive today if he just stayed home and did his bible study stuff.

06-07-2002, 02:41 PM	#12
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	This didn't happen to them because they're Missionaries. It happened because they're Americans. These people have died, and their death should not be used to show why missionaries are wrong. Start another thread if anyone wants to do that. ~~RvFvS~~ [ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

06-07-2002, 02:55 PM	#13
Straight Hate Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 4,171	Maybe the religion haa nothing to do with the killings, but it was the reason for them being there. Ttravelling to an area that numerous sources have said "stay out" about with two children back home isn't the most responsible choice you could've made (religion not being any* issue in the matter). Edited to add: No one likes seeing someone else die, but the fact is, no matter what you do, you're choices come with a disclaimer that there are simply no guarentees. I grieve for the children, but am I wrong to feel no pain for the deceased? [ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kathall ]</p>

06-08-2002, 04:04 AM	#17
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	I would have much rather heard the obnoxious gloating that it was 'God's Miracle' (tm) that all hostages had survived a successful rescue. To hear it was 'God's Plan' (tm) now just makes my stomach turn. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> [ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Panta Pei ]</p>

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06-07-2002, 05:09 PM	#14
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	The deaths are truly terrible. And no matter why they were there, they did not deserve to be kidnapped or held for so many months or to die. My interest is in the way their the American's death will be treated by the govt. and the media. Remember when the two young ladies were rescued from Afghanistan? They were at the White House and the media were happy to air their opinion that their rescue was a miracle from God. Now that this gentleman has been killed, will anybody related to the case blame God? I doubt it. The Big Guy always gets good press. He can't lose!

06-08-2002, 02:51 AM	#16
Triple Six Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: formerly Lae, Papua New Guinea Posts: 1,867	The missionaries were misguided fools but they did not deserve to die as a result of yet more islam inspired crime and murder. When are people going to focus on the root cause of these deaths? What has the response of the islamic community been?

06-08-2002, 05:34 AM	#19
Ruy Lopez Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manila Posts: 5,516	from Dangin nly four Abu Sayyef killed in the raid. It was almost tit-for-tat. This is nothing to celebrate or gloat over. ----------- Four Abu Sayyaf killed and 7 army rangers wounded because they could not fire at will. Abu Sayyaf originated in Afghanistan as mujaheedins fighting the USSR invasion. The were reported in Phil. media as financed by the US and Saudi Arabia. This is where the Bin Ladin connection is assumed. When the group returned to Southern Phils, they found it profitable first to rob and then kidnap for ransom. They are NOT RELIGIOUS. ============ from Annunaki: Originally posted by Fluffy: What the hell were these 2 idiot missionaries doing in a country known for kidnapings when they have three children at home. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They were there for no other reasons than to advance their religion. I`ve been seeing stories about this for months on the news and I don`t have much pity for these people. I do feel bad for their family,but I`ve seen their family members many times on TV backing up their parents "mission". They had no business being there and have no one to blame but themselves. --------------- There are all sorts of Christian sects doing missionary work in Phils. The most aggressive are Baptists and born again groups primarily because "business" seems excellent. Catholicism which is 80% of the population is losing appeal and the emotionalism associated with fundies could be attracting 15-20% of the people. The Burnhams were kidnapped in a rich man's resort in the company of rich Filipinos. They were hundreds of miles away from the A. Sayyaf stronghold island at the Southern tip of the country. Their "parish" area is among Christians far far away from muslims which are found in the South. Only local and foreign Catholic priests dare to operate in predominantly muslim areas. ================ from Rufus Atticus: This didn't happen to them because they're Missionaries. It happened because they're Americans ---------------- Not exactly. All the guests at the Las Palmas resort were taken since the assumption is they were all well-to-do; about 18 guests all in all. Being American is a bonus not for political reasons but because it is assumed they will pay in US$ and are rich. The bandits did not know they were missionaries. ================ from Proud Atheist: The missionaries were misguided fools but they did not deserve to die as a result of yet more islam inspired crime and murder. When are people going to focus on the root cause of these deaths? ------------- In this particular case, you'll have to believe me. The media, Phil. and US gov't want to present this as Islam vs. the West for their own reasons. Abu Sayyaf has been long disillusioned with Islam. They react to gold and would readily kidnap a wealthy Imam or son of Allah if they see one. I give you a hint. The US wants to portray the Abu Sayyaf as Bin Laden supported because they probably think they can achieve media victory over an insignificant small group in some faraway place. The Phil. gov't wants US weapons, money and business that stirs up the local province. The Burnhams were unfortunate victims in the wrong place and time. They were serious evangelists and were not here primarily for money. Many American fundy missionaries make a killing; many do not and are pitifully short of funds. It depends on the territory.

06-08-2002, 02:18 PM	#20
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	We in the US, have to consider the fact that one of the reasons we are hated is because of fundy missionaries. They go into countries which have established religions and sometimes ancient traditions and spout their fundamentalist protestantism. It is outrageous and obviously offends many people. These foolish missionaries compound the problems by venturing into areas where there are political power struggles going on and just mess things up. Granted, the Islamic fanatics are not better, but they do live there. These lily-white anglo-saxon types go into these countries and just piss people off with their mind-numbling bible ideologies. Sorry to hear about a man's violent death. He would be alive today if he just stayed home and did his bible study stuff.

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