Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dangin · 06-07-2002, 05:56 AM

<a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/758715.asp?0si=-" target="_blank">Dead Missionary</a>

OK, I'm in Kansas so I hear a lot about this story on the news. The phillipine army raided the Abu Sayyef camp this morning and the christian missionaries were shot. The man died, the wife was shot in the leg and died. Another hostage was also killed.

There have been constant prayer sessions in Wichita, and at other churches. Obviously god answered none of these thousands of prayers. Also Martin Burnham cannot even be seen as a martyr, because I really doubt his experience is going to inspire US christians to go and be missionaries in the Phillipines. He wasn't even killed because of religion, it was about money.

Now his kids are orphans, his wife is a widow, and another woman is dead. I don't even know what to say about it all. The xians at the religious college where the prayer vigils were held sent out a spokesman today who said "we will all be turning to the lord today". My only response was "I understand completely, he's done so much for you in this situation so far . . ."

RufusAtticus · 06-07-2002, 06:21 AM

I grieve for their families. Dying in a botched rescue attempt is no way to go. I hope the Phillipine army destroyed the hostage takers so they can't do this ever again.

dangin · 06-07-2002, 06:38 AM

Only four Abu Sayyef killed in the raid. It was almost tit-for-tat. This is nothing to celebrate or gloat over. It's just stunning that the only thing these people have to rely on is god, even though he does nothing.

Sometimes prayers are answered and the answer is no.

Sometimes you get what you want without praying.

What is the point of prayer again??

Gurdur · 06-07-2002, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin:

Only four Abu Sayyef killed in the raid. It was almost tit-for-tat. This is nothing to celebrate or gloat over.

However, it sounds like you are gloating. Especially when you mention he was only killed for money, not faith.

Quote:

It's just stunning that the only thing these people have to rely on is god, even though he does nothing.

Would it have been better had they been armed with nuclear weapons ?
Or is this yet another gun-rights thread ?

A better approach to these people is to try to understand their motivations, rather than simply tut-tutting over their predestined failures.

Quote:

Sometimes prayers are answered and the answer is no.

Sometimes you get what you want without praying.

What is the point of prayer again??

Yeah, but so the big what ?
We all know the score here, Rufus, yourself, myself; does it need constant repetition ?

abe smith · 06-07-2002, 07:31 AM

Many persons die every day. Many persons die by violence of one sort & another every day. Many persons die very unpleasant deaths every day. Many persons who die every day leave dependents behind them who need to be cared-for. They are all equally dead. And perhaps my "position" is -- oh, heck; John Donne said it centuries ago. I say, all lives are of equal value; and you don't have to invent a "gawd" to make that a human fact; and in death/ having become dead, we are all equal. This is of course my opinion. Are there any human assertions wh/ are NOT *opinions*? Abe

fando · 06-07-2002, 08:49 AM

I don't have much of a problem with the survivor's religious rambling. I see it as a defense mechanism to stave of mental breakdown. It's the only way she has to cope with the horrible outcome, so I say let her call upon her faith to strengthen her.

What I'd like to know is how an atheist or agnostic would handle the survivor's ordeal. Personally, I'd probably ride out the emotional rollercoaster until father time soothes the pain. Grief isn't too hard to get over once you've been through it a few times.

Pitshade · 06-07-2002, 11:43 AM

Off to MRD...

Fluffy · 06-07-2002, 02:13 PM

What the hell were these 2 idiot missionaries doing in a country known for kidnapings when they have three children at home.

Anunnaki · 06-07-2002, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fluffy:
<strong>What the hell were these 2 idiot missionaries doing in a country known for kidnapings when they have three children at home.</strong>

They were there for no other reasons than to advance their religion. I`ve been seeing stories about this for months on the news and I don`t have much pity for these people.
I do feel bad for their family,but I`ve seen their family members many times on TV backing up their parents "mission".

They had no business being there and have no one to blame but themselves.

fando · 06-07-2002, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki:
<strong>
They had no business being there and have no one to blame but themselves.</strong>

Would you say the same of the other American who was beheaded by the Abu Sayaff? His name was Guillermo Sobedo. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1595000/1595098.stm" target="_blank">He was on vacation</a>.

06-07-2002, 05:56 AM	#1
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Missionary Killed in Phillipines <a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/758715.asp?0si=-" target="_blank">Dead Missionary</a> OK, I'm in Kansas so I hear a lot about this story on the news. The phillipine army raided the Abu Sayyef camp this morning and the christian missionaries were shot. The man died, the wife was shot in the leg and died. Another hostage was also killed. There have been constant prayer sessions in Wichita, and at other churches. Obviously god answered none of these thousands of prayers. Also Martin Burnham cannot even be seen as a martyr, because I really doubt his experience is going to inspire US christians to go and be missionaries in the Phillipines. He wasn't even killed because of religion, it was about money. Now his kids are orphans, his wife is a widow, and another woman is dead. I don't even know what to say about it all. The xians at the religious college where the prayer vigils were held sent out a spokesman today who said "we will all be turning to the lord today". My only response was "I understand completely, he's done so much for you in this situation so far . . ."

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06-07-2002, 06:21 AM	#2
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	I grieve for their families. Dying in a botched rescue attempt is no way to go. I hope the Phillipine army destroyed the hostage takers so they can't do this ever again.

06-07-2002, 06:38 AM	#3
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Only four Abu Sayyef killed in the raid. It was almost tit-for-tat. This is nothing to celebrate or gloat over. It's just stunning that the only thing these people have to rely on is god, even though he does nothing. Sometimes prayers are answered and the answer is no. Sometimes you get what you want without praying. What is the point of prayer again??

06-07-2002, 07:31 AM	#5
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Many persons die every day. Many persons die by violence of one sort & another every day. Many persons die very unpleasant deaths every day. Many persons who die every day leave dependents behind them who need to be cared-for. They are all equally dead. And perhaps my "position" is -- oh, heck; John Donne said it centuries ago. I say, all lives are of equal value; and you don't have to invent a "gawd" to make that a human fact; and in death/ having become dead, we are all equal. This is of course my opinion. Are there any human assertions wh/ are NOT opinions? Abe

06-07-2002, 08:49 AM	#6
fando Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 1,372	I don't have much of a problem with the survivor's religious rambling. I see it as a defense mechanism to stave of mental breakdown. It's the only way she has to cope with the horrible outcome, so I say let her call upon her faith to strengthen her. What I'd like to know is how an atheist or agnostic would handle the survivor's ordeal. Personally, I'd probably ride out the emotional rollercoaster until father time soothes the pain. Grief isn't too hard to get over once you've been through it a few times.

06-07-2002, 11:43 AM	#7
Pitshade Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sugar Grove,NC Posts: 4,316	Off to MRD...

06-07-2002, 02:13 PM	#8
Fluffy Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 31	What the hell were these 2 idiot missionaries doing in a country known for kidnapings when they have three children at home.

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