Orpheous99

Many of the Christians assert that since their god loves us all that we should accept him/her/it and all which comes with this worship. I.E. "I love you and I say that the world is flat, so you should believe this if you want me to continue loving you as well." This is not love, it is slavery. And it is not enough to base a belief system on which requires one to accept totally without ANY real questioning or evidence.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>

stooks

When dealing with an issue such as the existence of God, where it is impossible to prove an answer either way, you will find evidence to support what you want to believe. This may be done totally subconsciously, but it still happens.

When I was younger I blindly accepted Christianity. Out of pure emotion and by what I had been taught. In recent years, however, I have questioned my beliefs. I have attended lectures, read many books, done studying of my own and asked questions to people who are much smarter than me. All the answers I found led me straight back to a holy, loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, timeless God who created the entire universe.

You on the other hand have obviously found something very different then me. Since neither one of us can truly prove our belief. Then only one question remains. What are the consequences of one of us being wrong?

If you are right and I am wrong, then (this is just a guess, you didn't put down your beliefs) I become dust and nothing more.

If I am right and you are wrong, then you will be in an unbearable hell for all of eternity, that is quite a long time.

So maybe you should renew your quest for knowledge looking towards God instead of towards nature, or whatever forces that you believe in.

I know that I have led a fulfilling life so far. I have seen and done many things that most people only dream about. I am willing to die for my beliefs. That is how sure I am about them. Do you feel so strongly about yours that you would risk spending an eternity in hell.

phlebas

Apparently, someone didn't read the PLEASE NOTE area at the top of the forum home page.

stooks, please read up on <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/wager.html" target="_blank">Pascal's Wager</a> as soon as you get a chance. Maybe you'll see why statements like the one above carry absolutely no weight around here.

Welcome to II, though

Darwin's Finch

Cripes, Stooks, all that reading, all that study -- and the best you can do is regurgitate Pascal's Wager?

BTW, willingness to die for one's belief (or suffer eternally for it) is only an interesting piece of psychological data, not an argument. But you knew that, didn't you?

Orpheous99

I don't have to prove my beliefs, I'm an agnostic. The only valid way to prove me wrong is to actually produce god in the so-called flesh.

BTW, Pascal's Wager is not a very good arguement for believing in god.

Sandy

If I am right and you are wrong, then you will be in an unbearable hell for all of eternity, that is quite a long time.

Considering the many faiths and religions out there who ALL claim to have the "one true god or gods", chances are pretty good that YOU have picked the wrong one and may be going to some other god's hell.

I know that I have led a fulfilling life so far. I have seen and done many things that most people only dream about. I am willing to die for my beliefs. That is how sure I am about them. Do you feel so strongly about yours that you would risk spending an eternity in hell.

You are not unique in this aspect, on either count.

Speaking for myself, yes, I do feel strongly about what I hold dear in life. I especially hold dear the fact that I can choose to believe in Zeus, Apollo, Allah, Buddah, the Mickey Mouse of the Cosmos, or NONE of the above. In order for me to fear this hell you speak of I'd have to believe hell exists in the first place. I don't so the point is moot.


Sandy

Foxhole Atheist

From stooks:

“I am willing to die for my beliefs.”

Well, I’m not, for I have to account for the possibility that I may be wrong. Anyhow, the only way you can prove that statement is to do so. In this day and age, that is no longer a requirement in our society.

To be willing to die in order to save the life of another, whether it be a loved one, or as has happened before, for a total stranger, makes more sense to me than a willingness to die for something you do not know for certain even exists. And, all theists have their doubts.

Datheron

stooks,

Hm.....I've quoted the interesting part, and I refute it as follows.

As you say, if you're right and I'm wrong, then I'll spend an eternity in hell.

But if I'm right, you'll just go back to the earth.

And you also say that you believe so strongly in your beliefs that you're willing to die for them.

Putting two and two together - I can say that my belief is so strong that I am willing to risk spending an eternity in hell for believing them.

Now, you tell me, if we are to take accuracy based on strength of belief, who's the stronger believer?

Deputy42

i dont think anyone would defend blindly following a system of beliefs, it is foolish. your mention of slavery is interesting look at romans 6:15-23
"what then? should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? by no means! do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? but thanks be to god that you having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entruested, and that you, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. i am speaking in human terms beacause of your natural limitations. for just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now prestent your members as slaves to righteousness for sanctification. when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. so what advantage did you then get from the things of which you now are ashamed? the end of those things is daeth. but now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to god, the advantage you get is sanctification. the end is eternal life. for the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of god is eternal life in christ jesus our lord"
'nuff said

Tercel

Hi stooks and welcome.
Your brief life history sketch reminds me of myself: I have also found the evidence led me back to Christ.

Welcome to these boards, if you ever need any help on the boards or support in your faith, feel free to contact me, or any of the other Christian posters here.

You'll soon note, if you haven't already, that the skeptics are particularly afraid of Pascal's Wager because it is simple, effective and undoes their Occam's razor argument. So they simply ban us from mentioning the thing and pretend it doesn't exist or doesn't work. Well, it's their board, so I suppose we have to obey their rules in all humility...

Anyway, all of this is to say: Welcome aboard, and I look forward to seeing more of your posts in the future.

God Bless,
Tercel