Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Automaton · 04-25-2002, 09:17 AM

Most religious denominations believe that for one to get into heaven (and, in many cases, avoid hell), they must repent in some shape or form. Obvious examples include Catholicism with confession, and Fundamentalism with repentance. God apparently uses the physical universe as a "testing ground", to see which of those are worthy to get into heaven, as an act of Divine Justice(tm). Presumably, heaven is a lot better than non-existence (and certainly better than hell), and it would be a tragedy for a soul to be lost and not go to heaven. Now, for the purposes of illustration, picture these two scenarios:

Scenario 1
Lucy is a 24 year old businesswoman. Lucy has lead an interesting, although sinful (to say the least) life. She is also heathen. Two weeks ago, her grandmother passed away, and in her sadness, a well-meaning Fundy workmate slipped her a pamphlet for a "Bible Retreat" in the mountains. She decides to go, just to give this whole "religion thing" a shot. But as she is driving up the steep road up the mountain, an oncoming truck causes her to lose contol of the vehicle and crash off the road. Seconds later, her soul is crying out in agony and torment as the burning flames of hell ungulf her.

Scenario 2
The same as for the above, except Lucy's car does not crash. She goes to the Bible Retreat, discovers Christianity and her soul is Saved. When she finally passes away, she is granted passage into heaven and receives Eternal Bliss.

Thoughts
In scenario 1, Lucy did not choose to have the truck driver hit her. If he had not, scenario 2 would have taken place. This is not fair. This is not just. The free will/repentance method of salvation simply cannot be.

Objections
I brought this argument up a while ago on another board, and the theistic objection was: "God knew that Lucy wouldn't repent, and so didn't stop the truck hitting her." This means her actions were set in stone from day one, equals, no free will. And also, for God to choose, one way or another, what the truck driver did, is interfering with his free will. There's simply no way out of this dilemma. I'd be really interested in a Christian response to this.

David Gould · 04-25-2002, 06:28 PM

Simply - Calvinists do not believe in free will on the salvation question.

Theologists such as Augustine were fully aware of the conflict between divine sovereignty and free will.

Augustine believed that we had free will over our actions in this life but nothing we could do would allow us to be saved.

God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned.

He marks the saved by infusing them with the holy spirit so they believe in him. (note that the saving comes before the believing and not the other way around).

The damned never get this infusion of the holy spirit.

God did not interfere in the woman's life above nor in the truck driver's. They both lived out their lives and made their choices.

God did not need her to go to Bible Camp in order to save her - here choices do not in any way affect the chances for salvation.

To say that they do indicates that God is somehow bound by human decision making, which is nonsense.

Please note that I am an atheist. Also, please accept that most people who claim to be Calvinists do not appear to actually believe the doctrine as above, as they still exhort people to change and believe and pray to God for the salvation of others et cetera.

I think the Calvinist doctrine is the most consistent and hardest to attack.

G B Mayes · 04-25-2002, 06:53 PM

Lucy was not on the list of the elect, the pre-destined by God to be saved. This is a difficult concept and many do not like to accept it, but the Bible is very clear that God saves those he chooses to save.

David Gould · 04-25-2002, 06:56 PM

achristian1,

So you agree that it is pointless trying to convince others to believe and that it is also pointless to pray for the salvation of others?

Humans cannot change the divine will in any way, after all.

DrLao · 04-25-2002, 07:28 PM

I had a long response written out, but I realized that it didn't solve the OP's scenario at all. I don't think the all-knowing, all-powerful God can be reconciled with free will. A number of Christians have tried to explain it to me, but I still do not get it. Calvinism seems like the only response, but the Bible very strongly implies free will in many places and much of the Christian message depends on it. This may be the most fundamental contradiction in Christianity.

G B Mayes · 04-25-2002, 07:29 PM

It is not pointless trying to convince others to believe. That is one way God reaches those he has chosen. The believer is to help pick the fruit that is ready to drop. However, the believer needs feel no failure if his efforts seem futile.
The elect will be reached one way or another; the non-elect cannot be reached and will not respond under any circumstances.

The value of prayer to effect change is a tough topic. We are exhorted to pray at all times and in all circumstances, though it seems better a way of thanking God than accomplishing a wish list. It is hard to imagine that God would be swayed by our arguments. In Gen 18:22-33 Abraham seems to negotiate with God over the destruction of Sodom. I always find this passage humorous. I think God knew what He was going to do all along and Abraham just thought he was negotiating.

David Gould · 04-25-2002, 07:35 PM

But surely it is pointless - God will reach those who he wants no matter what you do so why bother?

What is prayer for, in your opinion?

G B Mayes · 04-25-2002, 07:54 PM

But surely it is pointless - God will reach those who he wants no matter what you do so why bother?
What is prayer for, in your opinion?

The reason is that a convicted Christian feels his salvation and daily walk is such a gift that he wants and needs to share it out of gratitude.
The belief is that followers are important instruments Christ uses to accomplish His purpose.

Prayer is primarily to praise God. For some reason it seems God appreciates our praise. He doesn't need it for His pride or for any other purpose whatsoever. Prayer is also useful in gaining a better understanding of God and the Bible. To some extent the more one prays the more the Word is opened up to them. Previously difficult scriptures become obvious. Finally, prayer is used, and is supported biblically, as a means to effect change, bringing us full circle.
I have a hint of the reality of this but not enough to argue it well.

Kenny · 04-25-2002, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Gould:
<strong>But surely it is pointless - God will reach those who he wants no matter what you do so why bother?

What is prayer for, in your opinion?</strong>

Actually, there is a very interesting article on this very question from a Calvinist perspective <a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/Prayer/Sovereignty_and_prayer.htm" target="_blank">here</a> by John Piper.

Here’s a quote from it.

Quote:

2. If someone now says, "O.K., granted that a person's conversion is ultimately determined by God' I still don't see the point of your prayer. If God chose before the foundation of the world who would be converted, what function does your prayer have?" My answer is that it has a function like that of preaching: How shall the lost believe in whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher, and how shall they preach unless they are sent (Romans 10:14f.)? Belief in Christ is a gift of God (John 6:65; II Timothy 2:25; Ephesians 2:8), but God has ordained that the means by which men believe on Jesus is through the preaching of men. It is simply naive to say that if no one spread the gospel all those predestined to be sons of God (Ephesians 1:5) would be converted anyway. The reason this is naive is because it overlooks the fact that the preaching of the gospel is just as predestined as is the believing of the gospel: Paul was set apart for his preaching ministry before he was born (Galatians 1:15), as was Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5). Therefore, to ask, "If we don't evangelize, will the elect be saved?" is like asking, "If there is no predestination, will the predestined be saved?" God knows those who are his and he will raise up messengers to win them. If someone refuses to be a part of that plan, because he dislikes the idea of being tampered with before he was born, then he will be the loser, not God and not the elect. "You will certainly carry out God's purpose however you act but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John." (Problem of Pain chapter 7, Anthology, p 910, cf. p 80)

God Bless,
Kenny

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Kenny ]</p>

David Gould · 04-25-2002, 09:01 PM

If the preaching is pre-ordained then so must everything that humans do - there is no free will in any of our actions.

I think I prefer Augustine's interpretation - that we are free to do whatever we want to do but no matter what we do the saved are saved and the damned damned.

04-25-2002, 09:17 AM	#1
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	Situations outside our control preclude "Salvation" Most religious denominations believe that for one to get into heaven (and, in many cases, avoid hell), they must repent in some shape or form. Obvious examples include Catholicism with confession, and Fundamentalism with repentance. God apparently uses the physical universe as a "testing ground", to see which of those are worthy to get into heaven, as an act of Divine Justice(tm). Presumably, heaven is a lot better than non-existence (and certainly better than hell), and it would be a tragedy for a soul to be lost and not go to heaven. Now, for the purposes of illustration, picture these two scenarios: Scenario 1 Lucy is a 24 year old businesswoman. Lucy has lead an interesting, although sinful (to say the least) life. She is also heathen. Two weeks ago, her grandmother passed away, and in her sadness, a well-meaning Fundy workmate slipped her a pamphlet for a "Bible Retreat" in the mountains. She decides to go, just to give this whole "religion thing" a shot. But as she is driving up the steep road up the mountain, an oncoming truck causes her to lose contol of the vehicle and crash off the road. Seconds later, her soul is crying out in agony and torment as the burning flames of hell ungulf her. Scenario 2 The same as for the above, except Lucy's car does not crash. She goes to the Bible Retreat, discovers Christianity and her soul is Saved. When she finally passes away, she is granted passage into heaven and receives Eternal Bliss. Thoughts In scenario 1, Lucy did not choose to have the truck driver hit her. If he had not, scenario 2 would have taken place. This is not fair. This is not just. The free will/repentance method of salvation simply cannot be. Objections I brought this argument up a while ago on another board, and the theistic objection was: "God knew that Lucy wouldn't repent, and so didn't stop the truck hitting her." This means her actions were set in stone from day one, equals, no free will. And also, for God to choose, one way or another, what the truck driver did, is interfering with his free will. There's simply no way out of this dilemma. I'd be really interested in a Christian response to this.

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04-25-2002, 06:28 PM	#2
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	Simply - Calvinists do not believe in free will on the salvation question. Theologists such as Augustine were fully aware of the conflict between divine sovereignty and free will. Augustine believed that we had free will over our actions in this life but nothing we could do would allow us to be saved. God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned. He marks the saved by infusing them with the holy spirit so they believe in him. (note that the saving comes before the believing and not the other way around). The damned never get this infusion of the holy spirit. God did not interfere in the woman's life above nor in the truck driver's. They both lived out their lives and made their choices. God did not need her to go to Bible Camp in order to save her - here choices do not in any way affect the chances for salvation. To say that they do indicates that God is somehow bound by human decision making, which is nonsense. Please note that I am an atheist. Also, please accept that most people who claim to be Calvinists do not appear to actually believe the doctrine as above, as they still exhort people to change and believe and pray to God for the salvation of others et cetera. I think the Calvinist doctrine is the most consistent and hardest to attack.

04-25-2002, 06:53 PM	#3
G B Mayes Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: texas Posts: 51	Lucy was not on the list of the elect, the pre-destined by God to be saved. This is a difficult concept and many do not like to accept it, but the Bible is very clear that God saves those he chooses to save.

04-25-2002, 06:56 PM	#4
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	achristian1, So you agree that it is pointless trying to convince others to believe and that it is also pointless to pray for the salvation of others? Humans cannot change the divine will in any way, after all.

04-25-2002, 07:28 PM	#5
DrLao Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Madison Posts: 39	I had a long response written out, but I realized that it didn't solve the OP's scenario at all. I don't think the all-knowing, all-powerful God can be reconciled with free will. A number of Christians have tried to explain it to me, but I still do not get it. Calvinism seems like the only response, but the Bible very strongly implies free will in many places and much of the Christian message depends on it. This may be the most fundamental contradiction in Christianity.

04-25-2002, 07:29 PM	#6
G B Mayes Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: texas Posts: 51	It is not pointless trying to convince others to believe. That is one way God reaches those he has chosen. The believer is to help pick the fruit that is ready to drop. However, the believer needs feel no failure if his efforts seem futile. The elect will be reached one way or another; the non-elect cannot be reached and will not respond under any circumstances. The value of prayer to effect change is a tough topic. We are exhorted to pray at all times and in all circumstances, though it seems better a way of thanking God than accomplishing a wish list. It is hard to imagine that God would be swayed by our arguments. In Gen 18:22-33 Abraham seems to negotiate with God over the destruction of Sodom. I always find this passage humorous. I think God knew what He was going to do all along and Abraham just thought he was negotiating.

04-25-2002, 07:35 PM	#7
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	But surely it is pointless - God will reach those who he wants no matter what you do so why bother? What is prayer for, in your opinion?

04-25-2002, 07:54 PM	#8
G B Mayes Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: texas Posts: 51	But surely it is pointless - God will reach those who he wants no matter what you do so why bother? What is prayer for, in your opinion? The reason is that a convicted Christian feels his salvation and daily walk is such a gift that he wants and needs to share it out of gratitude. The belief is that followers are important instruments Christ uses to accomplish His purpose. Prayer is primarily to praise God. For some reason it seems God appreciates our praise. He doesn't need it for His pride or for any other purpose whatsoever. Prayer is also useful in gaining a better understanding of God and the Bible. To some extent the more one prays the more the Word is opened up to them. Previously difficult scriptures become obvious. Finally, prayer is used, and is supported biblically, as a means to effect change, bringing us full circle. I have a hint of the reality of this but not enough to argue it well.

04-25-2002, 09:01 PM	#10
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	If the preaching is pre-ordained then so must everything that humans do - there is no free will in any of our actions. I think I prefer Augustine's interpretation - that we are free to do whatever we want to do but no matter what we do the saved are saved and the damned damned.

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