Jamie_L

Well, I could play the "what if" game, but I come back to my original point:

I did want God and truely sought him. I ended up becoming an atheist. There exist former ministers who (presumeably) wanted God and truely sought him - for the larger portion of their lives - who are now atheists.

This evidence invalidates the hypothesis that God gives evidence to those who seek God.

Jamie

Hawkingfan

If God is truth, and that is WHAT I AM SEEKING, then I AM seeking God, yet, I have not been "granted" any evidence.

Synaesthesia

If an atheist holds that they really did search for God or are sincere about finding the truth, cynics like SOMMS can always insist that any really sincere person would agree with them.

That may be.

What is not logically workable is the idea that if God wants us to believe in him that we could possibly fail to.

Unless SOMMS knows better than God. Which, in my opinion, is just the case we have here.

Mageth

One could play the "what if" game in reverse and ask "What if God withholds evidence from those who seek the truth (wisdom)?" 1 Corintians 1 seems to back up this viewpoint. In that chapter, foolishness seems to be the goal of "seeking" rather than truth or wisdom.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

God seems to get some kind of kick out of fooling us poor 'ole wise Greeks. Apparently God only likes fools, not rational thinkers and skeptics.

Philosoft

SOMMS,

The inherent difficulties of your position are mounting quickly. How do we even know if the concept of the God you're telling us needs to be sought is analogous to the actual entity in question? All we have is a variably-interpreted book and the reassurance of some who already believe in varying degrees of the truth of said book. Should we just try believing in every god-concept until we find one that personally responds? If so, what are the implications of the existence of other religions?

K

SOMMS:

I know this issue is very close to you and you feel like you have a relationship with God. But can you at least see that (from our point of veiw), this argument is the same as that put forth by psychics, mediums, and proponents of every other supernatural claim? If you dismiss any of these other claims because of lack of evidence, is it at least understandable why we would do the same with yours?

I know it seems very real to you, but Zeus and Apollo seemed very real to their followers. To me (and probably many others here), the Christian God and the Greco-Roman gods are essentially the same thing - with the small exception that I originally grew up believing in the Christian myth.

wdog

that is an entirely illogical attitude for someone who supposedly loves you. a mature love would seek you out no matter what, always make the first move, and if concerned about you being in hell, would be knocking on your front door in person.


I wanted to see someone take the math argument to its logical conclusion... the evidence i find for the existence of math is entirely dependent on my attitude. so if I open a calculus book, I will only see integrals if i have the right attitude?

JerryM

If God really did exist, at least the OT and NT God, the world would be a much different place. Jesus was supposed to have returned by now. In Matthew 24, Jesus talks about all the signs and wonders that will accompany his coming--the moon will darken, the stars will fall from the heavens, the angelic trumpets will sound, etc. And though he tells his disciples that they won't know the exact date or hour--"Truthfully I tell you, this present generation will not pass before all these things will happen." Matt 24:34 That's the way my bible (REB, 1970 edition) translates it. It seems obvious to me that Jesus is NOT talking about the human race as a whole, as this verse is commonly explicated. And I'm not a biblical scholar, but it's my understanding that the disciples clearly expected Jesus to return in their lifetime--as he said he would. I would believe in God, but I'd like to see him keep his promises.

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: JerryM ]</p>

Hawkingfan

No it isn't. In fact, from studying the Bible for many years trying to get to know him, some of us have come across evidence that proves it is a lie. This is all within the Bible in black and white--passages that require no interpretations, inconsistencies throughout. Do we need to quote them?

Amos

Oh I get the drift of the message but the net effect is just the way I wrote it or hell would be redundant for believers.