Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Keith · 07-17-2003, 12:21 PM

Ooops! Double posted my last post. I don't know how I did that.

Keith · 07-17-2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pain Paien

"Again, I have never intended to come off as condescending, and I can assure you I was not "emotional" when I made my posts. I was merely attempting to follow the tone that you yourself set."

O.K., I will accept that. I can't read your mind, and I might have been wrong. If so, please accept my apology.

Pain Paien · 07-17-2003, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
Since you are aware of the context, can you explain how my interpretation of its intended audience is faulty? Does the context more plausibly lead to the conclusion that God aimed that command toward people other than the Israelites? I still don't follow your point. I'm not dodging anything here. I really am curious as to why you think this particular command, given its context, is meant for people other than the Israelites.

In the earlier passages of Leviticus each of the commands is prefaced with, instead of merely the universal "every" (or an equivalent) as in 20:9, but with "every Israelite" (or an equivalent).

More to the point, why would it be in the bible at all if it only applies to certain people at a certain time? It was my understanding that for Christians at least, the bible was meant to be a moral guide, not a storybook. Specifically pertaining to our argument, you've claimed the bible is the source of objective morality. What is the possible [moral] significance of this passage (and further the entire book of Leviticus) if it is only meant to indicate god's now-irrelevant commands to Israel?

In addition, even if the passage is only morally relevant to the "people of Israel", many Christians feel that they are the inheriters of the morals (and spirituality) of Israel (i.e. they view themselves as "god's people"). If Leviticus is not morally relevant to living people, this hinders, rather than aids, your assertation that it is the source of objective morality.

Pain Paien · 07-17-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
O.K., I will accept that. I can't read your mind, and I might have been wrong. If so, please accept my apology.

Of course. Now we can happily continue our debate without further [irrelevant] distraction.

Biff the unclean · 07-17-2003, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
In what way was I going against God's will? I didn't say that THE ISRAELITES should have disobeyed that command did I?

Ya know God is pretty clear that he wants bad little boys killed. Sure there is Lev 20:9 but this same law is repeated in Ex 21:15 and Dt21:18-21.
Jesus doesn't get you off the hook either. You don't think that Jesus had his message only for Jews do you? Here he is in Mark taking the Jews to task for not killing their disobedient children

7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (10) For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: (11)
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.(12) And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; (13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

According to God's will-stated four times over so you can't miss it- the only moral thing to do is to kill these little brats. Unless of course you make "the word of God of none effect through your tradition." Which is to say that you have human based morals that demand children not be harmed.

Keith · 07-17-2003, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pain Paien

"More to the point, why would it be in the bible at all if it only applies to certain people at a certain time? It was my understanding that for Christians at least, the bible was meant to be a moral guide, not a storybook. Specifically pertaining to our argument, you've claimed the bible is the source of objective morality. What is the possible [moral] significance of this passage (and further the entire book of Leviticus) if it is only meant to indicate god's now-irrelevant commands to Israel?

In addition, even if the passage is only morally relevant to the "people of Israel", many Christians feel that they are the inheriters of the morals (and spirituality) of Israel (i.e. they view themselves as "god's people"). If Leviticus is not morally relevant to living people, this hinders, rather than aids, your assertation that it is the source of objective morality."

Why is it in the bible if it only applies to certain people at a certain time? (I'll try to answer all of your questions here). Like much of the OT, the history of the Israelites, God's instructions to them, and their frequent turning away from Gods commands, are in the bible so that we can know God; gain insight into his attributes such as his holiness, and observe the horrible consequences of disobedience to God. So, for example, Leviticus 20:9 is still morally relevant to Christians even though the command was not directed to us.

Keith · 07-17-2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean

"Ya know God is pretty clear that he wants bad little boys killed. Sure there is Lev 20:9 but this same law is repeated in Ex 21:15 and Dt21:18-21.
Jesus doesn't get you off the hook either. You don't think that Jesus had his message only for Jews do you? Here he is in Mark taking the Jews to task for not killing their disobedient children"

Clear indeed! In Ex 21:15 and Dt. 21:18-21 the command was given to the Israelites just like it was in Lev. 20:9.

I read your passage from Mark, and Jesus wasn't taking the Jews to task for not killing their disobedient children. He was taking them to task for their hypocrisy--desiring to portray themselves as followers of the letter of the law--while ignoring, or even hating the spirit of it.

Mageth · 07-17-2003, 04:48 PM

Why is it in the bible if it only applies to certain people at a certain time? (I'll try to answer all of your questions here). Like much of the OT, the history of the Israelites, God's instructions to them, and their frequent turning away from Gods commands, are in the bible so that we can know God; gain insight into his attributes such as his holiness, and observe the horrible consequences of disobedience to God. So, for example, Leviticus 20:9 is still morally relevant to Christians even though the command was not directed to us.

So, then, since the Ten Commandments (which are part and parcel with the Law you say was directed at the Israelites and not at us) were also directed at the Israelites, are they also not directed at us?

Biff the unclean · 07-17-2003, 06:37 PM

Clear indeed! In Ex 21:15 and Dt. 21:18-21 the command was given to the Israelites just like it was in Lev. 20:9.
Well duuuh! It's their silly god and their magic book. But you were the one who said that these moral laws laid down by god in this book were the moral laws for mankind. You went on to say that if morals didn't come from god then everyone would have different morals. Now you are saying that the morals in this magic book aren't for everyone and god didn't give them to all mankind, that they are arbitrary.

I read your passage from Mark, and Jesus wasn't taking the Jews to task for not killing their disobedient children.] He was taking them to task for their hypocrisy--desiring to portray themselves as followers of the letter of the law--while ignoring, or even hating the spirit of it.
It's not my passage, I'm an Atheist thank God. But that's right they hate the spirit of god's law that tells them to stone disobedient children to death. Don't you?

Perhaps I misled you. I gave myself a pretty silly user name and you seem to take it that that means that I am stupid. I can read also, I'm pretty good at it (my lips move hardly at all anymore)
And I can read Jesus H. Christ saying, when the Jews complained that he was eating with shit still on his hands "For Moses said, : Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free."
So are Jesus' morals not meant for everyone, or are they? I've heard he was supposed to be perfect but when the Jews wanted to stone an adulterous woman, as God's morals in Leviticus demand, he let her off with a warning. But when the Jews didn't want to stone children to death, as God's morals in Leviticus demand, for being smart mouths, but wanted JC to wash his hands before lunch he has a pissy fit.
It seems like you pick whatever morals you please and then claim that they come from god and then ignore or spin doctor away the rest. Which means that your morals are your doing and not god's which is exactly what you are complaining about with non Theists. LOL

Keith · 07-17-2003, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

"So, then, since the Ten Commandments (which are part and parcel with the Law you say was directed at the Israelites and not at us) were also directed at the Israelites, are they also not directed at us?"

Yes. Jesus upheld the ten commandments clearly affirming that we--not just the Israelites, are morally bound by them.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-17-2003, 12:21 PM	#301
Keith Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: S. England, and S. California Posts: 616	Ooops! Double posted my last post. I don't know how I did that.

07-17-2003, 04:48 PM	#308
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Why is it in the bible if it only applies to certain people at a certain time? (I'll try to answer all of your questions here). Like much of the OT, the history of the Israelites, God's instructions to them, and their frequent turning away from Gods commands, are in the bible so that we can know God; gain insight into his attributes such as his holiness, and observe the horrible consequences of disobedience to God. So, for example, Leviticus 20:9 is still morally relevant to Christians even though the command was not directed to us. So, then, since the Ten Commandments (which are part and parcel with the Law you say was directed at the Israelites and not at us) were also directed at the Israelites, are they also not directed at us?

07-17-2003, 06:37 PM	#309
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Clear indeed! In Ex 21:15 and Dt. 21:18-21 the command was given to the Israelites just like it was in Lev. 20:9. Well duuuh! It's their silly god and their magic book. But you were the one who said that these moral laws laid down by god in this book were the moral laws for mankind. You went on to say that if morals didn't come from god then everyone would have different morals. Now you are saying that the morals in this magic book aren't for everyone and god didn't give them to all mankind, that they are arbitrary. I read your passage from Mark, and Jesus wasn't taking the Jews to task for not killing their disobedient children.] He was taking them to task for their hypocrisy--desiring to portray themselves as followers of the letter of the law--while ignoring, or even hating the spirit of it. It's not my passage, I'm an Atheist thank God. But that's right they hate the spirit of god's law that tells them to stone disobedient children to death. Don't you? Perhaps I misled you. I gave myself a pretty silly user name and you seem to take it that that means that I am stupid. I can read also, I'm pretty good at it (my lips move hardly at all anymore) And I can read Jesus H. Christ saying, when the Jews complained that he was eating with shit still on his hands "For Moses said, : Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free." So are Jesus' morals not meant for everyone, or are they? I've heard he was supposed to be perfect but when the Jews wanted to stone an adulterous woman, as God's morals in Leviticus demand, he let her off with a warning. But when the Jews didn't want to stone children to death, as God's morals in Leviticus demand, for being smart mouths, but wanted JC to wash his hands before lunch he has a pissy fit. It seems like you pick whatever morals you please and then claim that they come from god and then ignore or spin doctor away the rest. Which means that your morals are your doing and not god's which is exactly what you are complaining about with non Theists. LOL

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.