LianaLi

Hey Kctan and Turtonm, thanks for the explanations.

I don't believe I'm familiar with that arguement, so I fail to see how they're related.

My problem is that Confucianism does not establish strict guidelines to punish such individuals. They are obviously part of society, yet they don't share the same views of social obligations like everyone else. Yes, they need punishments to motivate them to obey common obligations, but Confucianism doesn't establish a system to deal with such people. It just assumes that everyone is going to follow because they observe all the same obligations, which isn't neccessarily true.


-Liana

Gurdur

Liana,
my comments were not meant as any correction on arguments about Confucianism per se, but rather as comments on your rationalization for Legalism.

As far as I know, you're more or less right in your critique of Confucianism - which makes me, I suppose,

Gurdur the Very Revisionist Confucianist.
Regards. Sorry for inadvertant confusion.

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

LianaLi

Ahhh, ok. Neo-confucian? Just kidding. Imho, Legalism, as an ideology, is much more effective in establishing and maintaining society and order than Confucianism. It doesn't presume people will naturally recognise and fulfill their social obligations, and stands ready with the sword to lop off iterant body parts in case they don't. Ahhh, the good old days...

Mmm, confucianism, the bane of my life. I understand that Chinese history is closely tied up with its philosophy, but when all you do is study the philosophy, and none of the history... I ask, what history am I learning? &lt;/rant&gt; Sorry. Gearing for finals and another paper in a class, where I thought I would learn more... and didn't.


-Liana

Vorkosigan

Originally posted by kreepykiepe:
DejaVudew:

My personal non-academic belief (after living in Thailand) is that one reason belief, religion and philosophy is so different over there is that there was no Dark Ages or Inquisition to really root out the animism and old beliefs. So many people's worldview is by our standards pretty strange and inclusive of lots of beliefs.

No, I believe it is simpleminded ethnocentricity. Their weird beliefs are weird, our weird beliefs are normal.

For example one day I came home from a weeklong trip and my Thai host family was having this big New Years party with multiple Buddhist monks doing some purification ritual that kept the (animist) evil spirits out of the family compound and everyone's kwam (souls, everyone has about 15) in their bodies.

Yes, it reminds me forcibly of the priest spraying everyone with smoke from burning incense, praying the rosary, believing in a god who rose from the dead, purgatory and other nonsense.

Another example, Thai animist belief says that it is easy to disrespect or scare your kwam out of your body, which leads to illness. So people have all thesekwam respecting customs that everyone practices VERY SERIOUSLY.

You mean like homoeopathy, that says water molecules "remember" the shape of medicines, or chiropracters, who can cure bacterial diseases by adjusting your spine, or pyramidology....

To get back to my original point, many Thai will do all of this and set up an altar to their ancestors, which is pretty confucian. they may also go see a traditional chinese medicine practicioner when they are sick, and MUCH of that is based of Taoist beliefs.

Yes, I saw the same thing in Taiwan. I always found this attitude very refreshing, very practical.

Michael

kctan

You are wrong there my friend, Chinese history is so closely tied with our daily lives that all our lessons are almost all derived from history.

Want to read some chinese idiom stories ? Have you tried "The Art of War" ? "Romance of the three Kingdoms" ? They are more likely actual historical happenings then madeup fictions.

LianaLi

My point is, that the selections that I've been given to read for a class, namely about Chinese History, has not focused on Chinese History. The professor forgets to teach the jump between doctrine and philosphy to historical events. So my view is quite slanted and lacking, I'm sure. Only lately, has he taught things like Zhu Xi's commentary on the Great Learning and the Mean, and correlated them to education in China, but most of the time, there are just big old blank spots of time. There's huge amount of reading devoted to Buddhism, but it's never explained how the documents first got to China. Ect. I'm floating in this miasma of philosphy with no idea of how it's realted to events.


Excepts of it, actually. Sounded very similar to alot of daoistic sayings.

I've read "Dream of the Red Chamber" actually. Weird story. I'll have to give chinese literature another go, now that I sort of understand the background.

The point is, I've read alot of "junk", but I still don't understand how it's related to anything, because no one's shown me where the pieces fit. I'm going to re-read the history text book assigned over x-mas break, and see if that clears anything up. It's been translated over from french, so the language gets clunky at times, so I don't know how helpful it's going to be. I think I may bave a copy of "Romance of the three kingdoms" in the books he's assigned, otherwise, I'll just go get it, and read.

-Liana

kctan

Liana,
Learn chinese.

If not, tell me specific things you needed & I'll try digging them up from my local library.

BTW A Dream of Red Mansion is considered as classical literature. The settings all that plus things protrayed are historically accurate but its just a story. Romance of the three Kingdom is also another with the events & the people historically true with the added difficulties of separating which are fiction & which are true.

LianaLi

Hahahahahaha Does learning chinese painting count?

Actually, have you got any recommendations for books that cover a history of Chinese dynasties?


-Liana

kctan

<a href="http://ii-f.ws/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=000058" target="_blank">Chinese philosophy & history</a>

Luckily the NAR&P Forum is so small. I still can dig out this little link I made quite awhile ago without hassle.

Browse thru & let me know if they lack anything which you wished to know.

logansluf

i have just recently stumbled upon this forum and thought i would add to the discussion

chuang tzu was briefly mentioned earlier but not in detail
the tao te ching offers a brilliant poetic depiction of politics and life
chuang tzu puts these ideas and others similar into parable form, perfect for one has recently discovered taoism or just for a few giggles

in regards to the origanal question, chuang tzu is fond of using confucius as a character in his parables
with perfect irony though chuang tzu's confucius
is more often than not depicted as holding the Way and the teaching of taoism in reverence and even refers to lao tzu(tan) as "the perfect man"
(or junzi for those who have read confucius)

there have been many other wonderful taoist authors and poets through the ages-i suggest to everyone i meet they should enjoy them all, often

"there is nothing in the world bigger than the tip of an autumn hair, and mount t'ai is little. no one has lived longer than a dead child, and p'eng-tsu died young. heaven and earth wre born at the same time i was, and th ten thousand things are one with me."
(p'eng tsu was the chinese methusula, oldest living man)
-chuang tzu