Eudaimonist

What is the contrast between Confucianism and Taoism? How do Taoists critique Confucianism, and vice versa?

echidna

From The Tao of Pooh you may be interested in one of my favourite stories, The Vinegar Tasters as a comment on Buddhism and Confucianism from the Taoist perspective.

BTW, the link was only the first I found from a websearch on the story, so I'm not sure I agree with the author's further thoughts on Taoist philosophy on gender and such.

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: echidna ]

Boshko

There's pretty much as different as night and day. Confucianism is very aristocratical, pro-hierarchy, ritualistic, and pretty ambiguous in a lot of places since the Confucian tradition is vast and multi-faceted.
Taoism fairly mystical and anarchistic, it completely rejects the kind of personal cultivation that Confucianism often endorses (ie the process of becomming ren, which sort of translates as benevolence), and endorses "stupidity" and lack of "action." But writing style of the Taoist texts (I'm in the middle of the Tao Te Ching at the moment) is EXTREMALLY hard to follow so its often hard to say exactly that's being said.

If you want I can dig up specific passages where Confucians criticize Taoists and vice versa.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Boshko ]

Boshko

here's a Taoist critique of Confucianism:

The highest virtue is not virtuous; therefore it truly has virtue.

The lowest virtue never loses sight of its virtue; therefore it has no true virtue.


The highest virtue takes no action, yet it has no reason for acting this way;

The highest humanity takes action, yet it has no reason for acting this way;

The highest righteousness takes action, and it has its reasons for acting this way;

The highest propriety takes action, and when no one responds to it, then it angrily rolls up its sleeves and forces people to comply.


Therefore, when the Way is lost, only then do we have virtue;

When virtue is lost, only then do we have humanity;

When humanity is lost, only then do we have righteousness;

And when righteousness is lost, only then do we have propriety.


As for propriety, it's but the thin edge of loyalty and sincerity, and the beginning of disorder.

And foreknowledge is but the flower of the Way, and the beginning of stupidity.

here's one of the simpler statements of Taoist philosophy

When the world has the Way, ambling horses are retired to fertilize fields.

When the world lacks the Way, war horses are reared in the suburbs.


Of crimes--none is greater than having things that one desires;

Of disasters--none is greater than not knowing when one has enough.

Of defects--none brings more sorrow than the desire to attain.

Therefore, the contentment one has when he knows that he has enough, is abiding contentment indeed.

Eudaimonist

Thanks, Boshko! Do you happen to have a Confucian critique of Taoism?

Jimmy Higgins

Best thing I ever read, discovered it senior in English World Lit. Imagine that! A world lit class that dealt with world literature not books written in England.

I've gone through the Tao te Ching a billion times, well that's an exaggeration. What Taoism professes is that you should be nice, should do good acts, not be prideful of those acts. It also points to leadership. But what I think people may mistake in Taoism is the sense of anarchy, to be a leader without leading. This is, I believe not true.

Let me give an example. Take the hippo. A large blubbery mammal that lives in Africa. The hippo just does its thing and all is good. However, the digestive tract of the hippo doesn't completely digest the food it eats. So when the hippo spreads its, ahh... stuff, while in the pond, it is a source of food for fish. The ah.... stuff, also acts as plant fertilizer. Life in a pond shared by hippos flourish, but the hippo does nothing to make this happen through conscious acts. The hippo just does it. To give life, without giving life.

I like connecting "The Zone" in sports to Taoism. To hit a baseball without hitting a baseball. When someone is in the zone, they actually don't try as hard to do as well. The mind is in complete connection with the baseball. They just hit the ball without trying to hit it. Just as shuffling feet can cause a man to fall, thinking too hard causes the mind to stumble.

When I first read the Tao te Ching, I got a mystical meaning. Got that the second time. The third time I felt laziness within the words. But now when I read it, I get this hidden wisdom in the words. It isn't be anarchist, but rather its saying to do without trying, just do it.

Chapter 30 teaches, "Just do what needs to be done." People read that take that as too simplistic, but following it says "Achieve results" five times, "because this is the natural way."

I suggest the Tao te Ching version by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English. Its the most expensive, well $16 but it really does it justice. When I was in a book store getting the "sequel" to the Tao Te Ching, the lady remarked that she was going to read the Tao te Ching, that it seemed small and manageable. I laughed. You don't read the Tao te Ching. You take a chapter and you delve in it.

And we all can not forget the ultimate knowledge the Tao te Ching gives us in chapter 31, regarding the political spectrum.


[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: Jimmy Higgins ]

Boshko

The Tao Te Ching is great, its the sort of thing you get more meaning out of the more you read it. And I don't think its mistaken about anarchism, you've just got to understand the kind of anarchism its advocating.

Confucian critique of Taoism:
15:31. The Master said, I once went all day without eating, and all night without sleeping, in order to think. I gained nothing. It is not as good as studying.

18:5. Jye-yw, the Madman of Chu', passed by Confucius singing, Phoenix, ho! Phoenix, ho! How is your virtue now brought low! You cannot now reprove a past mistake; You still can overtake a future woe. Have done, oh! Have done, oh! Those who now serve, at their own risk do so! Confucius descended, and wanted to talk with him, but he quickened his steps and evaded him, and he was not able to talk with him.

And then there's the Mohists:
Moreover, the Confucians corrupt men with their elaborate and showy rites and music and deceive parents with lengthy mournings and hypocritical grief. They propound fatalism, ignore poverty, and behave with the greatest arrogance. They turn their backs on what is important, abandon their tasks, and find contentment in idleness and pride. They are greedy for food and drink and too lazy to work, but though they find themselves threatened by hunger and cold, they refuse to change their ways. They behave like beggars, stuff away food like hamsters, stare like he-goats, and walk around like castrated pigs. When superior men laugh at them, they reply angrily, "What do you fools know about good Confucians?" In spring and summer they beg for grain, and after the harvests have been gathered in they follow around after big funerals, with all their sons and grandsons tagging along. If they can get enough to eat and drink and get themselves put in complete charge of a few funerals, they are satisfied. What wealth they possess comes from other men's families, and what favors they enjoy are the products of other men's fields. When there is a death in a rich family, they are overwhelmed with joy, saying, "This is our chance for food and clothing!"

Smallberries

Wow, I love that political critique. How true it is.

I adore Taoism, especially since as far as I can tell it is atheistic. Check out these essays by Chuang-tze (I found them in
Sources of the Chinese tradition) where he explains why he thinks there can be no conventionally accepted omnipotent deity.

Also, very female postive for an ancient Chinese philosophy. Always equating the Tao to feminine icons or actual women.

As they say where I am from Wheeee-haaaaa! I love those women-positive Chinese atheists.

--kreepykiepe using hubby's 'puter

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: Smallberries ]

Jimmy Higgins

Smallberries: You hit upon one of the most glorious parts of the Tao te Ching. It is asexual. It is not ethnocentric. It is applicable to ALL people.

One reason why I find so much wisdom in there is because there are no man made rules within it. The Torah, New Testament, Qu'ran all have arbitrary rules. One does not apply rules of the Tao te Ching. Rather one must live with the understanding of it.

Western philosophy ponders that there are rules you must abide by. Living means suffering, but you get rewarded in the end for your trials, if you obey whatever rules you had in your religion.

Eastern philosophy doesn't ponder much, or atleast Taoism in its good years didn't, about what wasn't, but what is. You live with a feeling of understanding through Taoism. You only think you know the rules with western religion. Western religion is a gamble, you do certain things, you suffer from them, but if all is right, you are rewarded. Taoism offers instant rewards and righteousness. It isn't a freepass to materialism, rather it is a freepass to understanding. The greatest of gifts a human could have. And Taoism does not limit this gift to men. It does not limit this gift to the Chinese. It does not limit this gift to humans. It is universal. Its almost like Metacrock's idealization of occum's razor, but not to Metacrock's benefit. Taoism has not arbitrary necessities, while every single worldly religion does. Its so cool to know this philosophy. It gives so many rewards.

Smallberries

Yeah, "ya got that right" as they say up here in Minnesota.

I am a pretty political person and I really like the fact that Taoism stresses concepts that resonate with my politics. Being and doing are the focus rather than passivity in the conventional pondering sense.

Also, it has a lot of pro-environment stuff wrapped up in it which I also like. those Confucians are so darn anthropocentric!