HaysooChreesto!

No offense, but I wouldn't encourage this sort of thing. It brings you down to below the Xtians level. It makes you seem combative and aggressive. Traits which usually aren't admired.
People take this stuff very personally and it will cast you in a negative light. It's the old "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" saying.
Refine your reasons for your atheism and present them when confronted. That doesn't mean you have to sit back and shutup. The opportunity to discuss religion will arise by itself as you've already noticed.

Also, pick out specific things from the Bible and confront them with it. Xtians are baited easily when asked "do you believe the Bible is infallible and is the real word of God?". It's easy from there. You can start at the beginning; Adam and Eve and Noah's flood are high energy grist for the atheist mill. It also lets them know that you know more about their beliefs than they do and it will give your arguments more substance. They will be less likely to confront you and the more intelligent ones will tend to admire your intellect.
Using their own bullets against them...

For all this god did it stuff, just keep pointing out that there are probably a hundred natural explanations for what you talked about in your original post.
You'll do well.

Alludium Fozdex

I couldn't agree more! I wish I had known that stuff back in "the day."

Listen to Lamma, theIPU; this one's a real sharpie!

Jobar

I agree; well said, Lamma.

TheIPU, answer their questions with better questions. Why is there evil? Is Satan more powerful, and if not, then why did God create Satan? Do you think God loves us? Why does he let evil happen to us, then? Do you think there is free will in heaven, and if so, why is evil a consequence of free will on Earth?

More- why do Muslims believe in Allah but not in Jesus? Is the Bible holier than the Koran? Why? Are there some Christian sects who are misguided? If they also believe in the Bible, then why does God allow them to be wrong? Do you think they go to hell when they die? Why does God have a torture chamber?

You can tie them in knots with good questions. Read some of the dialogues of Plato, and observe how Socrates used questions as weapons.

theIPU

I pointed out some errors in the FWD using http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../theodicy.html But a problem arose. They asked me how I judge what is evil and what is not. I know this is completely subjective and I have heard of moral subjectivism--Yet I still do not how to answer the question of absolute right or wrong. Now if I can't say what is evil and what is not clearly my anti-FWD argument fails. Thanks for any help

Fiach

Is free will a real human property of the brain or is it an illusion. The vast majority of mankind feels that there is free will. We look at alternative choices and we pick one that certainly seems that we are choosing by free will. But I offer an alternative hypothesis.

We know that the brain is a very complex computer, a billion times more complex than your PC. Your PC is a series of circuits that are programmed with certain information that turn a + or – signal at its neuron before generating another signal to a million other neurons that may turn on + or – circuits. The result is that if you put a subject in your google search engine, the same way every time, you get the same set of web pages. Your computer has no choice; it gives the information in its hardware programming and soft-ware applications. The computer doesn’t choose anything. It gives the only answer that it can give.

The human brain is a complex computer with huge storage data of memory, association areas from experience, and a given hardware set of circuitry. When you pose me a problem, 2 + 2 =, my brain is going to come up with 4 every time. I don’t choose 4, my circuits do almost unconsciously. You flash a game card coloured red, and ask me what colour, I will answer “red” without obvious thinking. It is processed by circuits of which our conscious minds are barely aware.

Suppose you give the red card a number of times, you will say it is red each time. You don’t choose the word red. If you brain is given more complex questions, like choosing a motor car. Your brain will process the input, pull in memory data from its association areas including knowledge of motor cars. Some may think about speed, acceleration, safety, appearance, social prestige, petrol efficiency, comfort but do so instantaneously that the conscious part may not be aware. You answer quickly pops out, BMW or Rolls, or Jaguar. The decision is made by your brain with the use of data collected over years. I posit that if you could be given the same question to the same brain consecutively you would get the same output, answer. The problem is that we can’t do that. If we use a human subject, and ask the same question over and over, it will not occur. Why? Because each time you pose the question, it becomes part of memory and makes new associations. In short it is not the same brain as it was before you asked the question. Circuits and synapses occur when you read anything. My circuits and synapses change from writing this essay.

I alluded to this in a prior post on choice of belief in God. My point was that belief in God is not really a choice. We all say that one chooses to believe. I have been accused of choosing not to believe. But information now about brain neurophysiology and my personal life history suggest that even belief in God is not a choice. Some brains by their frontal networking and early input lead to belief or non-belief independent of emotional choice. My personal example is that I was raised to believe in the Christian God. I have Bible stories in school. As early as my second year in school, about age 7, shows that I already have problems believing. I had no advantage in unbelief. My mates all believed. But the Bible stories I hear and later read, posed moral and rational problems for me. They didn’t make sense. God’s actions didn’t make sense to me, but my classmates had no problems believing.

I struggled with trying to believe so as to be like my mates. But the more I tried, the more I failed. On my request, my mother arranged for me to have Saturday afternoon sessions on Belief in God, understanding the Bible, with a pastor who taught theology. He and his wife were very nice to me and we were lifelong friends. We would talk over tea and cookies for up to 4 hours and did that for 9 months. I took a year in an Irish Catholic school with their theology and tried to find reasons or even an excuse to belief. Yet I failed. My brain persistently rejected theologically concepts, while all of the other lads believed automatically and didn’t even think about it. The Lasses all believed until a college girl friend and my future wife.

This idea corresponds to whether one likes asparagus or not. I have a healthy appetite and burn up energy. I like most foods. Yet the first time I eagerly chomped on a sprig of asparagus, and Yuck. I hated it. My Ma and Da, brothers all liked it. I thought, “Maybe I got a bad piece.” So I took a second bit, and Yuck. I like Haggis, while my mother and one brother hate it. Haggis is the nationalistic loyalty food. Did we choose? Did I choose to not like asparagus when I chomped on the first piece expecting to like it? Did I choose to like Haggis while my Ma liked it?

Does my son like Rap Music because he is rebellious while I don’t like the sound of it? This applies to favourite colours, music, art, telly programmes. My point is that the human/animal brain is a very complex computer with incredibly complex circuits making my PC a relative amoeba compared to all of you. These complex programming process data/input and correlation of associations, analyses through the rational circuits, and out pops an unavoidable, maybe inescapable answer.

Freewill is an illusion. There is no free will, but a complex neural structure, a super computer give a certain answer based on its input and its memory/associations. It happens so rapidly and automatically, that is seems to be free will. Even when we seem indecisive, it may actually be the brain putting in extra association areas, and reprocessing the data through the frontal rational filter until it weeds out the less rational answers and leaves the most rational answers. We think that we “decided.”

Just my opinion, but I pose it for comments. I am a minority on this, as I have been all of my life.

Fiach

Jamie_L

The thing about "miraculous" recoveries is that the are NOT so unlikely as to be impossible without intervention. In a world with 5 BILLION people, even things that seem to have small probabilities of occuring will happen with surprising frequency. People just really aren't very good at judging how likely something is to occur when you start dealling with populations that large.

Something that has a one-in-a-million chance of happening to someone will happen 5000 times!

So, spontaneous remissions shouldn't necessarily be so surprising. Sometimes bodies can heal themselves against long odds. Not often, but often enough that in a world of 5 billion, you're bound to hear about it every now and then.

On the flip side, what about all the people who don't recover? I've known devoutly religious people who died of cancer. Will someone who doesn't even know them claim these people weren't really religious?

Spontaneous remission isn't much of a miracle. Show me a whole cancer ward that goes into remission over night, and then we'll talk.

Jamie

Fiach

I have little to comment upon over your post. I totally agree. You have said it more concisely and in fewer words than I had to use.
Excellent post.

Fiach

Justin70

Absolutely superb point!

I think we all tend to forget that there are SO many of on this planet that things that would be considered 'impossible' in a small city would be quite possible on a much larger scale.

Point taken. Thanks Jamie. =)

Justin

Fiach

quote:
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Originally posted by Jamie_L

The thing about "miraculous" recoveries is that the are NOT so unlikely as to be impossible without intervention. In a world with 5 BILLION people, even things that seem to have small probabilities of occuring will happen with surprising frequency. People just really aren't very good at judging how likely something is to occur when you start dealling with populations that large.

Quite a number of "miraculous" or magical remissions such as cancer, cannot be explained at the time of the remission. But later testing shows a boost of the patient's immune defences. Tumour residuals may be found with inflammatory and immune attack evident. MS regularly in most cases has periods of apparently magical remission. The patient with his/her first remission is elated. I hate when I have to warn that exacerbation is likely but future remissions are likely as well.

Something that has a one-in-a-million chance of happening to someone will happen 5000 times!

Exactly.

So, spontaneous remissions shouldn't necessarily be so surprising. Sometimes bodies can heal themselves against long odds. Not often, but often enough that in a world of 5 billion, you're bound to hear about it every now and then.

Grocery tabloids mention the very rare cancer remissions and persons awaking from a 2 year coma, but they fail to mention that the other 99.9999% of such cases never recover. It God did the magic, then he is very capricious, and indifferent to the suffering of the vast majority. Not a nice God.

On the flip side, what about all the people who don't recover? I've known devoutly religious people who died of cancer. Will someone who doesn't even know them claim these people weren't really religious?

I have had the same experience with my patients. I have had to watch grieving parents praying over a child with a degenerative neurological disese (Pompe's or Tay Sachs) or inoperable Brain Tumour suffering for three to ten years. It is heart rending to see them pray in vain to an invisible imaginary God as their child suffers and eventually dies. Sadly, many blame themselves for not having strong enough faith. That is disgusting.

Spontaneous remission isn't much of a miracle. Show me a whole cancer ward that goes into remission over night, and then we'll talk.

A true test is to have just one leg amputee regrow his leg. That would be a never occurred before case. I would be impressed.

Fiach