theIPU

Okay, at my school some theists have been questioning my atheism (which is fine by me) but they use some arguments that are hard to respond to (at least for me).

Some of the arguments for God existing is

MIRACLES- "My dad is a doctor and he had a patient who was about to die from a terrible disease, and all of a sudden, HE WAS HEALED!!! If God didn't, who saved him?

"What about people who hearts stop and then suddenly come back to life! Doctors can't explain that, so God did it. If you say God didn't do it, who did then?"

I simply point out to them that they aren't giving all the circumstances included in these so-called "miracles" and that I am not qualified to make a medical statement on these matters. This doesn't convince them and saying I'm not qualified just gives them reason to say "Atheists can't explain it, only God can!" I say they are just using God as an excuse for their ignorance. Can anyone tell me how to respond to these God arguments?

Viti

Well, they can say whatever they want...if they don't provide evidence it is only anecdotal. Heck, you could say "I don't believe that happened, can you prove this miracle took place or this person who has been healed even exists" if you wanted to...it is up to them to back up their assertions. BUT, as you are young and have to see these people regularly, the answer you used is perfect IMO.

Also, point out to them that many many "terrible diseases", especially cancers, CAN and DO go into spontaneous remissions...and that the heart stopping is not necesarily indicative of death (and usually patients hearts restart under CPR...what people are they talking about whose hearts stop beating, they are left alone presumed dead, then "suddenly" come back on their own...I have never heard of such a thing)

Biff the unclean

Sounds like his dad isn't a very good doctor.

Biff the unclean

About 10 years or so ago in NYC a woman was brought into the morgue. In the evening she sat up and started talking. The attendent panicked and ran screaming into the street. Her co-workers followed her and when she told them what had happened they ran back to the woman on the slab. When they got there she was dead "again."
Funny thing, nobody even considered that she might have been dead and come back to life. Nobody even considered it a miracle and this woman was ressurected to forgive sins.
Nope, they just thought that a terrible mistake had been made. Incompetence not magic was what had happened.

theIPU

Ahh, asking them to PROVE that event happened. I have asked this many times. They want me to DISPROVE it. :banghead:

They say that spontaneous remissions aren't likely and that God was the true cause of the healing (but that would mean God exists, but they can't prove that...). I just want to know how the more experienced atheists handle these situations because the last thing I want to do is give atheism a bad rap at a Catholic School full of theists.

Viti

Well, as a more experienced atheist I usually just say "Until you can provide evidence such and such event even happened I will assume you are either lying, misinformed, or misunderstood what you were told. I cannot make any kind of determination based on a third hand story". Reiterate you are not asking for PROOF, just evidence...medical reports, X-Rays, the name of the patient, a news story or medical journal discussing these completely baffled doctors...anything you can review yourself.

Remissions may or may not be unlikely depending on the disease, but they are certainly not not impossible or even all that rare...and I think if you do some research you will find evidence of daily "miracles"...only they aren't seen as particularly miraculous because they happen too frequently. If they give you the name of the disease, do a serch on the percentage of spontaneous remissions for that particular malady. Nothing refutes like hard data

AJ113

Nothing you say is going to convince your colleagues that their view is unreasoned, illogical and irrational, because they are all suffering from a severe case of Brainwasheditis thanks to their nearest and dearest.

If I was in your position I would first (politely!) ask for details of each so-called incident. If they do happen to supply details then I am sure that you will have the wherewithall to suggest many other possibilities other then their puerile "goddidit" solutions.

In the absence of any further details coming forward, it may be worth spending 30 seconds of your valuable time explaining the folly of the "unexplained=goddidit" scenario. The goddidit assertion has been made many times in the past only for the propogators of such fallacies to be left with egg on their faces when the real reasons have subsequently been discovered.

Failing that, ask them which god was responsible for these miracles. Zeus? Mithra? the IPU?!!? What is so special about their mystical creature that it is better than anyone elses?

theIPU

Could I please have a good example?? I'd think you people would have better ones than me.

I DID THAT!!! I USED THE IPU (my username ) and they said, "God is different than the IPU!" :banghead: :banghead:

Ernest Sparks

If someone decides that God healed/revived these victims, then the subject is closed. Nothing else will ever be learned about the incidents. You can be sure that the medical staffs will be running heavy batteries of tests to find out why the unexpected happened. They won't be looking for God's influence. They might not find answers in a short amount of research time, but they often do. When they succeed, then they add to medical knowledge. That wouldn't be true if they just decided that God is responsible and just said goodbye to their patient (,chalking one up for God).

Walross

Your friends are jumping to conclusions. "unexplained" does not equal "godidit". Just because something unexplained and unexpected occured, how can they justify coming to the conclusion that god was responsible? Maybe it was super advanced aliens, or leprechauns, or satan. Or maybe there was just a perfectly natural reason that hasn't been found. The bottom line is that asserting an unknown natural cause for these "miracles" doesn't require you to invent an entire "supernatural" realm with ill-defined parameters, and entities of dubious logical merit. Asserting god as the cause does require them to. Good luck,

Walross