ocean

According to you, It's all or nothing. Become a fundamentalist christian or burn for all eternity. This is a completely cruel unjust punishment. It's like a parent torturing his child for all eternity for breaking a vase.

If we are "like bacteria" in comparison to this "god", then why would he expect us to understand his "ways"?

Ensign Steve

I have a problem with this. It has been addressed already, but I want to expand on it. Suppose I created some bacteria, and for some reason I loved that bacteria and I wanted it to spend eternity hanging out with me. But I decided that I only wanted those bacteria which believed that I existed and believed that I created them and that there was more to their universe than their little petrie dish. And any of those bacteria that didn't understand that would be punished by torture for a really long time. Sounds pretty cruel, doesn't it, especially if I did not endow the bacteria the mental capacity to understand me.


That said, I have one more comment on the infinite punishment for finite sin issue.

It takes only a minor understanding of basic calculus to figure this one out. A finite number, divided by infinity, has a limit of ZERO. In respect to our immortal soul's infinite life-span, the time we spend here on earth, sinning our brains out, is equal to ZERO. We are damned to eternal torment over NOTHING.

Jen

Asha'man

Mercy is giving a punishment that is less than the person deserves.

Injustice is giving a punishment that is more than the person deserves.

The God described in xian theology is clearly not merciful, but totally unjust.

Shake

Hmmm... not sure why I'm bothering, but here goes.Ahh, yes, and omnipotent (but can't stop us from lying), omniscient (knows we'll commit crimes), and omnibenevolent (so he allows many us to end up in eternal damnation). :banghead:

So, you're saying there should be another great flood or something since almost everyone has at least lied at one time or another and therefore should be put to death? You must also be for capital punishment (hey, he goes off on tangents, why can't I), as well as the potential war with Iraq!

:banghead: :banghead:

MrDarwin

Magus, do you see that what you said is a nonsequitur? It makes as much sense as saying

But okay, so God is infinite, perfect, and holy, and we are not. Let's pick that up and run with it. This means we deserve punishment because...???

Because...???

I'm just not getting anything after those ellipses. I'm just not getting it, because the problem here is that we are imperfect because (according to Christians) God created us to be imperfect. You have avoided this in other discussions: why should a deity create beings to be imperfect, and then punish them when that imperfection manifests itself??? It doesn't make sense. It's not logical. It's not reasonable. It's not merciful. What you are saying makes as much sense as cutting off your child's fingers, then demanding he play the piano... and when he doesn't (or rather, when he bravely tries but just can't quite get it right), giving him a good whupping.

Magus55

No thats not what i mean, its the unpardonable sin because you can't be forgiven if you don't have Faith - forgiveness comes once you are saved in Christ. The holy spirit dwells within you and convicts you of your sins. If you don't believe in Jesus and his death/ressurection - you can't be forgiven - thus unbelief is unpardonable.

Jayjay

When human justice systems punish people, there are clear and sensible justifications for the punishment, for example:

1) To discourage people from committing crimes
2) To keep the wrongdoer harmless or away from rest of the society
3) To teach the wrongdoer a lesson
4) To pay for the damage caused by the crime

None of these make sense when talking about the eternal torture that christian God is so fond of. Hell does not discourage anyone from sinning, because it is kept a secret. Hell does keep the sinner away from non-sinners, but in this regard just letting them die instead of torturing them forever would be superior better alternative. Hell does not teach anyone a lesson, because they're trapped there forever. Hell does not correct the results of the sins on Earth, or in Heaven.

There is one reason that might justify Hell though:

5) Revenge

However, I don't think that any sensible person should think that there is something noble and divine about vengeance for its own sake.

MrDarwin

I was just trying to clarify that I think you're using "unpardonable" in a different sense than most people would. For example, if I change my mind, repent and come to believe, then my prior disbelief is pardoned. Is that right?

christ-on-a-stick

Hmmmm.... I always thought "blasphemy against the holy spirit" meant all those times I said to myself "f*ck off holy spirit, you're a motherf*cker" (even though I didn't believe in it but having some strange compulsion just to say it anyway. Kind of like, hey God if you're there I DARE YOU to strike me dead RIGHT NOW and show your awesome power" in front of my fundy mom. Not reccomended, although I *am* still here.....)

Seriously, that's what I thought it meant. Where exactly in the bible does it explain exactly what this means? Where is Magus getting this interpretation from?

Biff the unclean

He's getting it from Matthew Mark and Luke.

Mt.12:31-32 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
Mk.3:29 "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."
Lk.12:10 "But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."

But he's not getting it from Acts
Acts 13:39 "And by him all that believe are justified from all things."

Oh well three outa four ain't bad. If humans weren't so stupid then they would understand that there are no contradictions and be happy to burn in hell