abe smith

:Been there; did that. After I left RCism & took my son w/ me (He was about 7,8 then.)... later on , he early pubertal, wanted to go to same school w/ his friends (also ex-RCs, by then Assembly OF God members). Things were socially-tough for him then; = I said Okay, & made the arrangements . Shortly thereafter my son became a fairly-rabid proselytizer for the AofG sect; & we had some interesting arguments as he tried to persuade me that I too shd join his faith-sect.... Not too long afterwards, a year or two, the Pastor did a brutally-nonChristian unjustly-partisan favoring of his own son, also a student at the AofG school; and my son decided he did not care to believe all that stuff any longer. Now, a husband (x 2) and a father, in his late 30s, he appears to be an unheated secularist; we've not discussed much recently...I think All-That religion-stuff is less-basic to our relationship(s) than other ways of perceiving are, for us.
Hence, my Impression Izz, turn your child loose; give ho maximum freedom; & let the process flow. I think his first marriage w/ my well-loved number-1 daughter-in-law foundered *in part* because he refused to return to Catholicism; but there was more to their break-up than that... Not sure how any of all-this is shaking-out. Perhaps I'll ask = collect data... Probably I'm grateful (to No-One) that his life & those of his wives & children have not turned-out any worse than, eh, most people's. If you folks here believe in freedom of conscience, & all-that, I hope you believe in it for your CHILDREN, also? Abe

agapeo

Well said David! Your post was very helpful to me.

David Bowden

I do think that there is enough variance within Christianity that the denomination, age/maturity of the child, and other social factors would influence my specific actions, although as my earlier post indicates, my attitude is that a teenager should be equipped from an early age with the critical thinking skills that, in my opinion, make it difficult if not impossible to reconcile faith with fact.

The point, though, is not to indoctrinate them with atheism or agnosticism, but to equip them with thinking tools that will serve them well in a world full of falsehoods, scam artists and red herrings as well as beauty, truth, and things worth standing firm on. What a young person does with that equipment is ultimately up to them, and so long as they do not scorn that aspect of their "inheritance", I do not think that their religious or non-religious status will give me much grief.

My part is to make sure they keep that equipment in good working order, at least while they're on my watch, and that they practice using it on a regular basis so that using it properly becomes as natural for them as can be. Different circumstances will provide me with different options for continuing their "paideia", or basic upbringing.

Well, I hope to persuade them otherwise. It would be a false belief on their part to think that I was not a true Christian, and I for one would know that their Christianity would be starting off with (at least) this one very false belief, even if they didn't realize it.

One aspect of the upbringing of any child of mine would involve some basic practical psychology, and the psychology of "odd beliefs" (in UFO's, angels, Mormon history, ESP, resurrection - see Shermer's books) would be (and already is) a "priority" topic in our household, because it interests me and my wife. We are first-generation ex-Christians, both have some hard-science, psychology and logic education, and we served in Christian ministry together. We talk about this stuff all the time, and I assume it will carry over into dinner-table discussions involving our young children, and so perhaps that'll innoculate them against the sort of emotional appeal that ensnares so many youth.

But I'm really eating up bandwidth here...

Undoubtedly. I don't mean for my experience to stand in for their own. I simply want them to understand what I believed as a Wesleyan-leaning Evangelical Christian... and why I found that I could no longer be a Christian in any sense that I'm familiar with. I think that covering this ground would make them reconsider a great many issues in Christianity as a whole that new converts are not usually asked to consider at first, but which get slipped in under the radar by their teachers as time goes on.

Well, I did say "reconsider;" I wouldn't go so far as to assume that it would guarantee that they'd "see the light" and drop their newfound infatuation with Jesus.

Hehe. That particular bit of parental wisdom almost never gets absorbed until the child outgrows their error. I think that your analogy works to some extent, but that a "relationship with Jesus" is qualitatively different from a young hormonal-emotional love relationship - Christians and unbelievers both would agree with me there, I think. Either way, it's the child's naivete that makes things difficult, not the truth or falsehood of the beliefs.

To a young person, things are a lot more "certain" than they are to someone older. "Scrupulosity" is a phase many people go through during puberty. It involves especially fervent religious activity and "certainty," and it usually wears off after awhile. But this period is also when religious groups focus a lot of their resources on "fishing" for new believers. I see this as taking advantage of them during a period of susceptibility, but I realize the futility of trying to force a young person to drop the whole faith thing right away. It's absolutely intoxicating and thrilling; I remember it well.

Good point - I don't think I'm underestimating it, though. As I said, after so much discussion, I'm open to the possibility of their continued belief. I simply think it would be irresponsible not to bring to their attention objections to such belief, or to encourage them to integrate those objections into their own understanding of their newfound religion.

At some point, I hope, they would realize that a sense of revelation, or a powerful emotional personal experience, is common to most religions, and is in no way indicative of Truth. This goes back to basic psychological education, and my hope that a broad understanding of human experience will give them some perspective on religious experience in particular.

Well, here's one of those cases where it depends on circumstances as much as on my own attitude. If the version of Christianity we're talking about here is one that inspires people to create such deprogramming organizations, then I'd be extremely disturbed at their participation in it. (Not to mention disappointed in myself for failing to innoculate them against something so seemingly obviously wrong.) But if we're talking about them attending the local United Methodist church, I wouldn't be so wary, since I know a lot of the people there, and they're not wackos. Any group that I'm not as familiar with through recent or ongoing personal experience, I'd have to do some checking up on. Discussion would play a role, but I am prepared to accept that they would not drop their new beliefs after a single discussion, or many discussions. I cannot and will not force their minds on the issue.

But allowing them to participate in a group willing to try to force their minds is another matter. Ultimately, they're my children (or would be if they existed); I'm responsible for their well-being and cult programming is certainly not something I'd tolerate. Discussion would play a role, but removal from a mind-control group would remain an option and is, I think, the parent's prerogative, no matter what the child continues to believe.

"Deprogramming" ... the image I get is of evangelical "rescue teams" grabbing young people from competing religions and "re-programming" the child into orthodox Christian beliefs. I find that almost as disgusting as the cults themselves. Do equivalent secular deprogramming organizations even exist? I'd have to be pretty desperate indeed to send my child outside the home for such "therapy"... it's a hard to imagine but perhaps not unthinkable scenario.

But I think we're moving beyond the OP, which didn't seem to involve cults in the shockingly abusive sense, but Christianity in its more palatable forms.

1. Yes (If they're truly wackos). 2. Maybe (Depending on the apparent degree of wacko-ness). 3. It depends on the particulars. No two Christian groups are precisely the same in approach, doctrines, etc. If I lumped them all together and created a single strategy for dealing with them all, I'd fail to do justice to the questions or beliefs being cultivated in my child's mind. While I certainly believe in closing the doors to abusive groups, I do not believe in keeping my child in an epistemological cocoon, either. Once again, it depends on the circumstances. Whitewater rafting analogy - do you always use one technique, or do you evaluate the signs as you become aware of them, and strategize accordingly with the best interests of your whole crew in mind?

Depending on the circumstances (and denomination/cult affiliation), I might do this. For instance, I wouldn't bother going to a Jehovah's Witness meeting before warning my son or daughter of the abuses that are, by so many ex-Witness accounts, typical of that group, for instance. But I'd visit a good Catholic or Episcopalian church to hear the teaching and discuss it afterwards, if my teenager was interested in that.

Hahahaha!

Fact is, I didn't alter it.... And I noticed that in replying to this post, I only got "HelenM". I must have caught the ghost of "screwloose" on its way out of the II server...



- David

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden / wide-eyed wanderer ]

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden / wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

Heathen Dawn

I think the acceptance of the child's coversion to theistic religion should be on condition that the child shall not spit at his parents (figuratively speaking). When I was a theist, "honour thy parents" was the one commandment I certainly didn't keep.

Ab_Normal

My husband and I have discussed this issue. To set it up: I'm a strong atheist, he's best described as "eclectic agnostic", and our daughter has just turned nine. He asked what my reaction would be if our daughter went theist. My response: if she went fundie, I would feel like I failed to teach her anything about critical thinking. I hope to think that I would behave rationally about it, but I won't know for certain unless it happens.

Heathen Dawn

Going fundie isn't a result of failed critical thinking, it's a result of preferring emotion and groupthink (the belonging to the winning football team, you know) over rationality. I went fundie for those reasons. Luckily my faculty of critical thinking got me out of fundamentalism, and I managed to channel my emotions towards religion which is sort of compatible with naturalism.

Koyaanisqatsi

I'd mercy kill the poor dumb bastard...

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Seriously, I'd do what I do here; passionately argue against cult indoctrination of any kind and carefully take my son or daughter through every single element of whatever cult dogma they chose, explaining what it actually is as opposed to what it claims to be, giving them the tools to properly assess what true evil is; the exploitation of human ignorance and fear.

At least that way I would rest comfortably in the knowledge that they're well informed and have chosen a cult on a temporary basis out of simple reasons (like rebellion or social peer pressure) that will eventually wane and not because they were actually conditioned through inculcation.

In that manner, the cult conditioning will always be secondary and therefore, ultimately, ineffectual (it would be hoped), since the primary reasons they joined the cult would have little to nothing to do with the manipulation of personal desperation and the scrambling of the mind through cognitive dissonance (the two primary cult control mechanisms).

In short, I'd provide them the anti-dote to the snake-oil poisons of this world long before they could ever be duped into buying snake-oil or know that's what they were being sold.

David Bowden

Well put.

-David

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden / wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

frostymama

I have one who is 3 and another one that will be arriving in January so I am not quite there yet. I don't think I would mind at all if any teenager of mine decided to be a mainstream Xian as long as they didn't also decide to start preaching to me all of the time.

I would be very upset if they decided to become fundamentalists. I think I would be bothered by fundamentalism of any religion or philosophy... not just Christianity. My experience is that such views are often filled with hate and represent the worst of any particular group.

HelenM

Originally posted by David Bowden / wide-eyed wanderer:

The point, though, is not to indoctrinate them with atheism or agnosticism, but to equip them with thinking tools that will serve them well in a world full of falsehoods, scam artists and red herrings as well as beauty, truth, and things worth standing firm on. What a young person does with that equipment is ultimately up to them, and so long as they do not scorn that aspect of their "inheritance", I do not think that their religious or non-religious status will give me much grief.

I really like what you wrote here.

I believe that equipping children in that way is what they need, not ‘indoctrination’ per se.

Personally, I don’t see why telling children “Christianity is evil” is any less indoctrination than “Christianity is true”, or why telling them “God doesn’t exist” is any less indoctrination than “God is out there watching you”.

If we don’t teach them that they should have reasons for what they believe or disbelieve, and how to analyze the evidence for and against their beliefs or lack thereof, we are implying that no reasons are needed and doing them a disservice, imo.

Anyway, my viewpoint is that anyone who sets out to teach my kid anything might be indoctrinating them and that’s why I try to keep an eye on what they are being told and how it is being told to them.

Part of the problem is that teachers who don’t understand the scientific method won’t be teaching kids to use it, will they?

My part is to make sure they keep that equipment in good working order, at least while they're on my watch, and that they practice using it on a regular basis so that using it properly becomes as natural for them as can be. Different circumstances will provide me with different options for continuing their "paideia", or basic upbringing.

I understand. Seize the day! :-)

So if your child started attending church you could say (or do, without saying) “Ah, let’s practice the scientific method on what they are teaching you…” ;-)

It would be a false belief on their part to think that I was not a true Christian

I was citing a standard knee-jerk response…no offense…

our young children

If I may ask – how young are they? I forgot (if I ever knew). Mine are 7 and 9. I’m asking mostly to know how much direct experience you have with kids getting into the teenage years (if any). Maybe you meant some of yours are young…

But I'm really eating up bandwidth here...

I see it didn’t curtail the rest of your post though!

I simply want them to understand what I believed as a Wesleyan-leaning Evangelical Christian... and why I found that I could no longer be a Christian in any sense that I'm familiar with.

Naturally, you would.

I think that covering this ground would make them reconsider a great many issues in Christianity as a whole that new converts are not usually asked to consider at first, but which get slipped in under the radar by their teachers as time goes on.

Or which they stumble across themselves…

That’s one of the frustrations here, I would say – that Christians come here who haven’t thought about the issues people raise here – and think their quoting John 3:16 will override years of careful study of ancient texts, by some people here, say…it borders on insulting, imo. But I think they often don’t realize what they are doing.

a "relationship with Jesus" is qualitatively different from a young hormonal-emotional love relationship - Christians and unbelievers both would agree with me there, I think.

Perhaps you’re right and I’m in a minority position, but I see a lot of similarities, actually. What does a love relationship tell a young person? That they are loved; that they are accepted by someone and special to them. That’s part of the draw of the Christian gospel, to some people. Why do you think cults attract young people? Because someone is interested in you…

To young people struggling with many issues such as self-esteem and maybe with a very difficult home life, the idea that they are loved is very powerful. And it’s one thing to be loved by another person but to be loved by a Person who is All-Powerful…who will take care of you…etc etc…if you can believe that, that can transform your whole outlook on life. Teenagehood is a rather powerless time for many, after all. And young adulthood can be a time of great uncertainty – the ‘certainty’ of Christianity surely appeals to some…

So, the ‘physical’ aspects of a relationship are only part of its appeal. I’m not saying they aren’t important, but in my opinion the love/acceptance aspect is very important too…the offer of protection/security (yes, I know many people here are probably ready to jump in with “what security?” etc – but the point is, what you believe is very powerful. If you believe something it will hugely impact your emotions and probably therefore, your life, even if it isn’t true. And in more subjective matters, if you take two people who are equally gifted and experienced, the one who believes in his/her own abilities will accomplish a lot more than the one who doesn’t…I’m not saying facts and truth don’t matter – of course they do! - but I think it’s our beliefs that motivate us. Regardless of whether they are truth-based or not.

Either way, it's the child's naivete that makes things difficult, not the truth or falsehood of the beliefs.
To a young person, things are a lot more "certain" than they are to someone older. "Scrupulosity" is a phase many people go through during puberty. It involves especially fervent religious activity and "certainty," and it usually wears off after awhile. But this period is also when religious groups focus a lot of their resources on "fishing" for new believers. I see this as taking advantage of them during a period of susceptibility, but I realize the futility of trying to force a young person to drop the whole faith thing right away. It's absolutely intoxicating and thrilling; I remember it well.

I agree and your last point emphasizes how powerful the draw can be.

Given the power of it, do you think that if you’d been raised as you are raising your own children, you would not have been drawn in and believed – or do you think that what drew you would have drawn you even with the tools and knowledge you are trying to instill in your own children?

Perhaps the difference might have been that you’d have been drawn in but you would have more quickly brought analytical tools to bear and decided it was not tenable, in fact, and must have been some emotional trip but nothing more… what do you think?

At some point, I hope, they would realize that a sense of revelation, or a powerful emotional personal experience, is common to most religions, and is in no way indicative of Truth.

I think this relates to what I’ve just been writing.

This goes back to basic psychological education, and my hope that a broad understanding of human experience will give them some perspective on religious experience in particular.

I think there’s always the possibility, though, that they’d reject a psychological approach as starting from a non-Biblical viewpoint and therefore being erroneous.

Any group that I'm not as familiar with through recent or ongoing personal experience, I'd have to do some checking up on. Discussion would play a role, but I am prepared to accept that they would not drop their new beliefs after a single discussion, or many discussions. I cannot and will not force their minds on the issue.
But allowing them to participate in a group willing to try to force their minds is another matter. Ultimately, they're my children (or would be if they existed); I'm responsible for their well-being and cult programming is certainly not something I'd tolerate. Discussion would play a role, but removal from a mind-control group would remain an option and is, I think, the parent's prerogative, no matter what the child continues to believe.

This makes sense to me.

"Deprogramming" ... the image I get is of evangelical "rescue teams" grabbing young people from competing religions and "re-programming" the child into orthodox Christian beliefs. I find that almost as disgusting as the cults themselves. Do equivalent secular deprogramming organizations even exist? I'd have to be pretty desperate indeed to send my child outside the home for such "therapy"... it's a hard to imagine but perhaps not unthinkable scenario.

I thought they were all secular! Lol

My impression is that parents of kids who got into cults were behind the formation of the ‘deprogramming’ organizations, who wanted their kids back rather than having any thought of ‘reprogramming with a competing belief system’.

But I think we're moving beyond the OP, which didn't seem to involve cults in the shockingly abusive sense, but Christianity in its more palatable forms.

Yeah but isn’t this somewhat subjective? Don’t some non-Christians believe what you see as ‘moderate Christianity’ to be ‘shockingly abusive’?

I do not believe in keeping my child in an epistemological cocoon, either.

I see that as very likely to ‘backfire’ once the kid realizes you’ve been keeping information from them. What better way is there to make them curious about it?

For instance, I wouldn't bother going to a Jehovah's Witness meeting before warning my son or daughter of the abuses that are, by so many ex-Witness accounts, typical of that group, for instance.

Presumably if they saw you were right, based on their experience, that would earn you a lot of credibility with them as actually knowing what you’re talking about

But I'd visit a good Catholic or Episcopalian church to hear the teaching and discuss it afterwards, if my teenager was interested in that.

I’m guessing that they might be disappointingingly uninterested in discussing it with you their parent…but maybe not.

Anyway, I wasn’t really thinking of those kinds of groups in envisaging a scenario where a child thinks they have had some sudden revelation of the ‘truth’ of Christianity. That tends to happen more with ‘evangelical’ groups than more mainstream ones, in my experience.

I noticed that in replying to this post, I only got "HelenM". I must have caught the ghost of "screwloose" on its way out of the II server...


You should be so lucky…

Thanks for your reply!

Love
Helen

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>