openeyes

Plus, I still say the Vicar knows the situation better than we do. He is dealing with his real, complicated life, trying to make the best decisions. Advice and opinions can be offered without making his situation worse.

I've also found it's one thing to same something negative about one's own family (parents, for example), but don't appreciate others piling on.

christ-on-a-stick

I cannot second this strongly enough.

Vicar Philip

We spent the better part of Thursday having heart to heart discussions on our marriage and the kids via phone and in person.

She wrote me a long, detailed e-mail, and I took the time to respond to every single thing she had written. At the very end, I told her that if she truly thought I enjoyed making her miserable, didn't love her, and looked forward to causing her pain and suffering, to just do us both a favor and leave. This struck a nerve with her. She made a comment about leaving at the end of the summer, and I told her the kids were NOT going with her.

She wasn't expecting me to say that. We got into a very heated discussion about it, civil mind you (no yelling), and she asked me point blank if she left, would I let her have the kids? And I said no. She persisted, and said she'd take them anyway. I told her that would be difficult to do with a cop present. Finally she realized I wasn't kidding, and gave up. The mind game wasn't going her way so she folded.

In discussing this whole thing with not telling my parents about my new job, I think it boils down to her desire to hurt my mother's feelings. I've never talked about my mother here, but you must know that my mother was always against my wife and I. Shit, we were high school sweethearts, and mom didn't want me to see her then! She had another girl in mind for me, and my wife wasn't the one. Mom was against us getting married too, and took any opportunity she could to criticize and belittle my wife. As a result, we didn't speak to my parents for five years after we were married.

After our first child was born, my wife felt bad that we weren't even on speaking terms, so she sent my mother a letter and we met with them. Mom is still kind of flaky at times, but is a really good grandma. The kids love her, but occasionally my wife gets mixed feelings from her, which I've witnessed. So while I don't think my wife is totally justified in keeping my good news from my mom, I can kind of see where she's coming from. Enough of that.

As might be expected, the root of all of this is still my change in beliefs. She told me that she always thought that people get more and more spiritual as they get older (meaning spending more and more time with church and church activities) and she was upset that I didn't want that too. I told her I would rather go down to Giant City State Park near Carbondale, IL than sit through the same old tired sermons every Sunday. I asked, wouldn't you rather do that too? She said she wanted to do both, but she knew she couldn't change how I felt about church. And that is true. I will never go back to the way I half-heartedly believed before. No way. And she knows it.

So once again we're back to some semblance of normality. I'm a little worried, though, because she's planning on taking a leave of absence from Wal-Mart for a while over the summer. That means she'll want to go to church on Sundays again, and I am NOT looking forward to that confrontation. It's so much easier to just stay home.

Thanks for all the support, infidels (& Helen).

HelenM

If your wife's leave of absence means she's less tired and you have more time together, it might be worth it even if it does mean the 'church' issue will come up again. When you have time to talk it seems that you usually can come to some sort of understanding even if it's not a perfect solution for either of you.

Given what you've written about your wife, a critical Mother-in-Law is the last thing she needs. I think it speaks well of your wife that she approached your Mom after your first child was born. That can't have been easy. Anyway, what can I say? People sure can be difficult, can't they?

Helen

Treacle Worshipper

Vicar,
I want to say how much I admire you for sticking with this. If I'm ever in a serious relationship, I hope that I show the same sort of commitment to my partner that you have to your wife.
TW

Vicar Philip

Thank you, TW, that means a lot to me. I often get the feeling that folks here think I'm a glutton for punishment by staying here, but it's not as simple as "she's nuts, get the hell out." There are four children, we truly love each other, and we have a checkered past like everyone else. No one said it would be easy.

But thank you.

southernhybrid

I don't think you're nuts for staying with your wife but it did take me awhile to figure out that was what you really wanted.

I do think that you should be realistic in your expectations regarding your relationship. I think you will probably always have more conflict in your marriage than most people would want to deal with but if you can accept that and make the best of it, that's not necessarily all negative.

My mother has always given a lot of special allowances to my father. He has suffered from PTSD, bipolar disorder and severe depression for most of his adult life. She loves him and tries to look at his positive qualities while downplaying his mental problems. They've been married for 55 years and still love and need each other.

muon

I know I'm being a pessimist here, but if you think there is even the slightest chance that your wife will leave, and if you don't want her to take the kids with her, you need to see a lawyer. Now. Only a lawyer can tell you what you should be doing now to establish grounds for custody later.

I imagine that this isn't the advice you want to hear, and based on past discussions in this thread I predict you won't take it, but I offer it anyway, as it's the best advice I have to offer.

Good luck regardless.

HelenM

Is there a way of finding out about custody without seeing a lawyer? On the Internet, say? Or at the library?

Helen

The Other Michael

Hi Helen,

Darren could probably spend 10 hours on the Internet and have a hazy and possibly inaccurate understanding of the law, or take an hour and just go and see a family law attorney and get a reasonably definitive statement of what the law is in his particular area.

Research is a fine thing, but it might be better directed AFTER speaking with an attorney and getting some baseline info. A local attorney should not only be aware of any local quirks in the law, but might also give Darren advice like "if divorce does happen try to have it in this judge's court and not that one, or if you end up with Judge A, you'd better make sure that you do B, C, and D if you want to retain access to your children".

Darren can go to one of those maildrop places and rent a mailbox and give just that address to the attorney, so that there is no danger of a friendly note from the attorney showing up in the regular household mail.

But if he is looking at dealing with the law, expert advice is a very good thing, and it can be a very cost-effective investment.

There is some sense behind that old saw of "the person who is their own attorney has a fool for a client". And if you broaden that to "the person who refuses to go to a lawyer but found this really cool website that answered all their questions", well . . . .

Darren, seeing an attorney is not a traitorous act to your family. Your wife might well see it as an attack, but your family is you, your wife, and your kids. You may wish to place the family good higher on the priority list than your spouse.

Since I'm not a parent I have no idea how you value your children's welfare relative to your wife's welfare (and let's not forget to apply some value to your welfare too). Maybe the good of one child is equal to the good of your spouse, but then you have multiple children so that would seem to weigh on their side of the scale. Maybe a child only counts 50% of a spouse, or some other fractional value. I wouldn't be surprised if the relative values fluctuate depending who has been giving you the most grief recently.

It looks to me that divorce is not something that can be completely ruled out of the possible outcomes of all of this. A prudent person might wish to investigate the outcomes that may be of highest probability, if for no other reason than to gain a better idea of which outcome they wish to work towards.

I'll close with another one of those hackneyed sayings, which still seems to have some validity, to wit: "Failure to plan is planning to fail".

Darren, it looks to me like failure to plan on your part could easily have negative impact on your entire family. I suspect that if you don't plan for the family, your wife is unlikely to do so.

cheers,
Michael