Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tarnaak · 05-08-2003, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BioBeing
7:45 pm 05/08/03

BadXian went to nearby Convent. raped then murdered all the nuns. Demerits 1000000

9:15 pm 05/08/03

BadXian prays to God and repents. Demerits 0.

9:16 pm 05/08/03

BadXian donates $20 to kiddies charity. Merit + 100

Hey - this praying stuff sounds good! Get out of jail free!!!

Well, if you didnt get caught by police then you may have a thing going for you.
But you forget the key; you don't actually believe in Christ. Had you believed in Christ you wouldn't have done it to begin with. But nice try at twisting it around

Celsus · 05-08-2003, 07:39 PM

Please remember that GRD is an upper forum. There has actually been some adequate discussion in this thread, but if the discussion continues to degenerate, I will close this thread. If you are interested in getting people to see your point of view, ridiculing them won't help your case.

Joel aka Celsus
GRD Moderator

Goliath · 05-08-2003, 07:40 PM

Tarnaak,

Are you trying to say that no xian has ever raped or killed anyone?

Also, why do you keep ignoring this thread? Don't you want to win $1,000?

Sincerely,

Goliath

BioBeing · 05-08-2003, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
As far as I know Christianity is the only religion whos main character actually claime diety and performed mircales and died specifically in the manner which was prophecied.

How about Zoroastrianism for starters?

And you do know about Krishna, don't you?

Quote:

And actually, no, they were mormon

Oh well, missed that one. But it does support my position even more: you made a concious decision.

BioBeing · 05-09-2003, 02:16 PM

This post came from over here, but I replied here to try and keep that other thread from going too far off track. Hope no-one minds too much.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
My understanding of other religions is lacking I admit. I would say however that the reason I have not done much study of other religions is that "from what I've heard" none compare to the totality of what the Bible teaches, both in History and in Morality. Other religious writings are comparable, in that they teach us morality, but outside of Martyrdom, none can claim what the Christian Bible does.

Specifically, that a religion had a person that claimed to be God incarnate, did miracles with witnesses, then specifically died as payment for our sins then rose from the dead as proof of Godhood.

I gave you a pointer to Zoroasteranism and Krishna above.

But explain this to me: why is it so important for Xianity to have this matyr figure? I mean God, being displeased with his own work (again), sent himself down, only as his son, who was fully human, but obviously wasn't, because he was God, and could walk on water and do miracles and stuff, to try and set the record staight, then allowed himself to be killed (he knew it was coming right from the beginning, right?) for our sins, which he caused us to have, only he wasn't really dead, because he then ressurected himself so he could go back up to heaven to be with himself again, and sit on his own right hand.

Quote:

For further consideration:

"If I chose to not believe in God, and God exsists, then I have chosen unwisely. If I chose to believe in God, and God doesn't exsist, then I HAVE chosen wisely."

awfully like Pascals wager....

Quote:

If one does not seek the truth earnestly, then one is just doesn't care about themselves IMHO. If one was to EARNESTLY seek and not find, then they can at least say "I sought but did not find". You will have a defence with the Lord God should you find yourself there. For the Scriptures say, "Seek and ye will find".

OK first you propose chosing by Pascals wager, then you say "If one does not seek the truth earnestly". The two, in my book, are exclusive. To seek the truth earnestly, to be true to oneself, means not accepting belief just because you think its safer that way. Dig deeper and look for the truth, wherever it may take you. At least, that's what Xians are always telling me. Of course, they think it'll lead me to their Church door

Quote:

But perhaps thats the problem. One may not WANT to find the truth because one is satisfied with their belief and just doesn't care. Or perhaps one is afraid to find the truth, that it would "mess up" their lifestyle.

I think that you will find that many of the people here will take issue with this. Many have tried to "find the Truth(TM)", many have deconverted having found the Truth(TM) to be wrong. Many have desperately tried to believe. But, on an earnest examination, they cannot.

BioBeing · 05-09-2003, 05:56 PM

Oooops - I meant to put the previous post in Tarnaaks thread, not this one. Sorry Big Spoon!

Tarnaak · 05-10-2003, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BioBeing
This post came from over here, but I replied here to try and keep that other thread from going too far off track. Hope no-one minds too much.

I gave you a pointer to Zoroasteranism and Krishna above.

But explain this to me: why is it so important for Xianity to have this matyr figure? I mean God, being displeased with his own work (again), sent himself down, only as his son, who was fully human, but obviously wasn't, because he was God, and could walk on water and do miracles and stuff, to try and set the record staight, then allowed himself to be killed (he knew it was coming right from the beginning, right?) for our sins, which he caused us to have, only he wasn't really dead, because he then ressurected himself so he could go back up to heaven to be with himself again, and sit on his own right hand.

awfully like Pascals wager....

OK first you propose chosing by Pascals wager, then you say "If one does not seek the truth earnestly". The two, in my book, are exclusive. To seek the truth earnestly, to be true to oneself, means not accepting belief just because you think its safer that way. Dig deeper and look for the truth, wherever it may take you. At least, that's what Xians are always telling me. Of course, they think it'll lead me to their Church door

I think that you will find that many of the people here will take issue with this. Many have tried to "find the Truth(TM)", many have deconverted having found the Truth(TM) to be wrong. Many have desperately tried to believe. But, on an earnest examination, they cannot.

Up until now I really hadn't heard of Pascals wager. I really don't remember if I heard it somewhere or if it came to me on my own...
No matter though...

Checking the "data" that has poped up from these discussions, I certainly confirm my prior belief that one cannot find God via scientific methods. But still, things of the spirit have never been scientifically proven, yet "religion" has been around since history has been recorded. Doesn't this say something about things of a spiritual nature?

I will grant that Christianity "may not" be "the" religion. But one must admit, humans are drawn to seeking things of the spirit (soul). Why? Why does one feel that there is something more to life than just living? How does one explain the unexplainable? I have seen ghosts, ufo's, and looked at many phenomina. If we are that we are, then what is unexpainable?

Like "Fox Mulder's" poster says; "The Truth is Out there"...

reverendmoss · 05-10-2003, 01:40 PM

In Heaven there is no beer.
That's why we drink it here,
and when we're gone from here
all our friends will be drinking all the beer.

Is there polka in heaven?

orac · 05-10-2003, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
But still, things of the spirit have never been scientifically proven, yet "religion" has been around since history has been recorded. Doesn't this say something about things of a spiritual nature?

Yes.

It says that people have a desire to believe that they're special and important, that when terrible tragedies occur that they're "for a reason", that they won't really cease to exist when they die, that the world can be undserstood and controlled, and so on.

Does a desire for things to be true automatically make them true? Please tell me you're smart enough to know the correct answer to that question.

Oddly, the desire to understand and control the world is being met by science rather than religion - belief in God's lets you pass anything off as "oh, God did that" and say you understand it, but science actually provides the tools to change the world, which is more than religion ever did.

The existance of many conflicting religions suggests a lack of a convincing answer, too - noone seems to know what God wants or why He does anything, but they're still happy to invoke His name to explain anything that requires thinking.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
Like "Fox Mulder's" poster says; "The Truth is Out there"...

No, that's people on drugs, not the Truth. (Apparantly the capital T is important.)

Tragically, life isn't neat and tidy, and you're not guaranteed anything at all - and that includes explanations or justifications for all the terrible things that happen.

Here's an alternative quote for you: "Wouldn't it be terrible if life was fair and we did deserve all the terrible things that happen to us?" (Ok, I paraphrased slightly, I need to go check the exact quote some day.)

Tarnaak · 05-10-2003, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by orac
Yes.

It says that people have a desire to believe that they're special and important, that when terrible tragedies occur that they're "for a reason", that they won't really cease to exist when they die, that the world can be undserstood and controlled, and so on.

Does a desire for things to be true automatically make them true? Please tell me you're smart enough to know the correct answer to that question.

Oddly, the desire to understand and control the world is being met by science rather than religion - belief in God's lets you pass anything off as "oh, God did that" and say you understand it, but science actually provides the tools to change the world, which is more than religion ever did.

The existance of many conflicting religions suggests a lack of a convincing answer, too - noone seems to know what God wants or why He does anything, but they're still happy to invoke His name to explain anything that requires thinking.

No, that's people on drugs, not the Truth. (Apparantly the capital T is important.)

Tragically, life isn't neat and tidy, and you're not guaranteed anything at all - and that includes explanations or justifications for all the terrible things that happen.

Here's an alternative quote for you: "Wouldn't it be terrible if life was fair and we did deserve all the terrible things that happen to us?" (Ok, I paraphrased slightly, I need to go check the exact quote some day.)

The TRUTH is out there, we just havent found ALL of it yet. I'm not saying that the truth is a god or spirit, but truth, meaning what IS, is out there.

And what makes you think that life isn't fair, and the all terrible things that do happen to people aren't deserved? Please don't ask a silly question like, what about a baby that got killed or an example like that. Just because we think that it was unfair, doesn't make it unfair...

We as humans are guaranteed one thing....

Death!

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05-08-2003, 07:39 PM	#42
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	Please remember that GRD is an upper forum. There has actually been some adequate discussion in this thread, but if the discussion continues to degenerate, I will close this thread. If you are interested in getting people to see your point of view, ridiculing them won't help your case. Joel aka Celsus GRD Moderator

05-08-2003, 07:40 PM	#43
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	Tarnaak, Are you trying to say that no xian has ever raped or killed anyone? Also, why do you keep ignoring this thread? Don't you want to win $1,000? Sincerely, Goliath

05-09-2003, 05:56 PM	#46
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	Oooops - I meant to put the previous post in Tarnaaks thread, not this one. Sorry Big Spoon!

05-10-2003, 01:40 PM	#48
reverendmoss Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netzach Posts: 100	In Heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here, and when we're gone from here all our friends will be drinking all the beer. Is there polka in heaven?

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