DMB

This makes me sad, but suggests to me that at base the problem is not about religious belief; it's about the idea of marriage and, probably, self-image.

As a woman, I don't feel competent to say whether or not it is true of men, but I know that many women have a sort of ideal picture of what life and marriage should be like.

It often starts with a girl in her mid teens planning her wedding. "I will have a diamond-and-sapphire engagement ring and I will wear an ivory silk dress with a heart-shaped neckline and a long train and I will get married in X cathedral..." If you ask who she has in mind as the bridegroom, it is likely to be waved away as an unimportant detail.

Perhaps it starts even younger than that, when little girls play house, taking it in turns to be Mummy or Daddy and having an assortment of dolls and teddies as children.

I have a friend of my own advanced age who is now dying and has never married. When we were young women, she had a succession of boyfriends, some of whom became fiancés, but none of whom made it to the altar. She was always spinning these marriage scenarios and coming out with sentences like, "I see myself as an antique dealer's wife" or "I see myself as a top doctor's wife", etc. (It was never, "I see myself as a doctor" or whatever.)

Now not all women are made that way, but, despite the advance of feminism, I have come across quite a few who are like that. So I would suggest that your wife had some cosy little scenario in mind that she equated with marriage and never quite grew out of. Now you are bringing her up against the messy, real world, where things aren't tidily prepackaged, and she is suffering a terrible shock. I agree that some sort of counselling might well help, and I think that you should bear in mind that an objective should be to get her to face reality and understand that it is survivable even without comforting dreams.

Vicar Philip

Well, I won't be strummin' for a while:


Or a different angle:


It got rather heated here tonight. Started out promising. I came home from work early in the hopes of having some intimate time with my wife. However, she kept calling me "Darren" instead of the usual pet name she has for me. I asked why, and she said she didn't want to argue. But I insisted.

So, her new plan was that if I wasn't going to go to church with her and the kids, I wasn't allowed to do anything else with them either. She did say if she had to work and couldn't get anyone else, she'd ask me if I'd "lower (my)self and pick them up." That did it. I said, "Fuck this." Got dressed and left the room. I went back up after a bit, and we really got into it. She tried every trick in the book, but I wouldn't give in. She wanted me to come and hold her hand, and sit on the bed so she could talk to me. I refused, still stinging from the bullshit comment about MY kids. So eventually I left the room and came downstairs.

I was laying on the couch when she walked up to me, holding the guitar. At this point I didn't know what to expect, so I just laid there. I heard her making some noises but didn't get up to investigate. Finally she came back and said, "OK, what's next?" I told her I didn't know. She insisted I go upstairs so we could talk, out of the hearing of the kids.

We talked a little more about all the shit, and she got really pissed off when I poked holes in Christianity. To her, when I talk about religion with disdain, I am making fun of HER. Not true. Anyway, she'd had enough and told me to leave. So I got ready to leave, putting my coat and shoes on. I was almost out the door when she grabbed me, crying, and we talked some more. We got to another point where I pissed her off about the religion, and she wanted me to leave again.

All this crap culminated in her finally asking me if I would just agree to go to church. I could keep my beliefs. So we went upstairs, and I agreed. She thanked me and fell asleep, exhausted. I suppose it's a relief, as I don't want a divorce.

Then I stepped outside and saw my guitar lying in the snow. I'm guessing she tried to torch it with the lighter fluid, but for whatever reason it didn't burn. She broke all the strings. I don't know if it's still playable or not, I'm going to leave it right where it is. She can explain to the kids why it's out there.

I'm very confused right now. In a sense, I have got her to grudgingly accept my non-belief, but I have to go to church. I told her if the kids asked me if I believed in god, I would not lie to them. They're not stupid, they'll figure it out anyway.

Am I stupid for even staying with her? I love her with my entire being, but I am very tired of all the childish tactics she has adopted in this VERY nasty argument.

A Very Melancholy Vicar

BadBadBad

Wow, I'm sitting here in disbelief.

What do you say to that?


1. I wouldn't ever talk to this girl about religion. I think you're fueling the fire and playing into her screwed up little mind games. I just wouldn't give her the dignity. Why bother fighting with her on anything. I wouldn't waste my breath. You shouldn't negotiate with a 2 year old. She's manipulating you pal.

2. Who the hell is she to tell you what you can do with the kids? Who's she kidding? I'm like a prophet on this one. These kids are going straight to hell with you Darren. Does she think she's going to divorce you, and treat you like this, and not have a profound impact on whether they believe this christian shit? Who does she think is going to be their role model? Where's Goliath now? If she's going to start using the kids as a weapon, get divorced.

3. You don't have to take this shit. Not for 12 days, not for 15 minutes. You're probably going to hear a bunch of sappy shit about how you need to give her some time and she needs counselling. Bullshit. This girl needs a dose of reality. She's just a little three year old spoiled rotten little brat throwing a screaming tantrum. My wife used to work at the daycare. She'd see these same spoiled rotten brats come in and you could tell they controlled everyone in that house with this same manipulative shit. She wants you to go to church? To a pastor?Yeah right. I wouldn't give her anything. Turn the tables on this. Send her off to church without the kids. Cancel the Pastor shit. She doesn't need a counselor, she needs a spanking and then send her off to her room. Otherwise, you're not giving her the spanking. You're not sending her to her room, and on top of that, you're giving her the candy too. So much for dealing with this the next time.

4. Who made her God?

BC

seebs

My advice, which may not be the best, is - if you've worked out a solution, and you love her that much, then I think that's worth a guitar. Just take it as a clear statement that she was feeling REALLY strongly, and needs help, and maybe you can lead her towards getting some counseling. The counseling, I think, is more than ever clearly necessary.

agapeo

That's to be expected when so much has been laid upon you.
And I'm sure if you do so you will do so grudgingly, but that is still a compromise that both of you have made to the other. Despite the fact that it is done grudgingly, it indicates nonetheless that each of you still want to make the relationship work. Will these acts of compromise lead to the point where neither one of you are acting without that grudge? Perhaps not but it is still a step in the direction of working things out together. Sometimes doing so will not be the easiest or most tasteful thing to do.
And she said what?
No doubt, but doing so is not easy when the parents are fighting over it themselves.
Hmm . . . Not in my opinion. But I say so because you say:
If that is so how can staying with her be stupid? It may be painful, at times, but no marriage afaik is painless. Sometimes the pain in some is greater than in others, but pain is pain and no one likes to live with it. But the real tough part is not knowing for a certainty how long the pain would last if you stick it out. Or if it will ever cease to be. I think you have to ask yourself if you love her enough to withstand the pain. Is your love for her strong enough to sustain you for longer than a day, a week, month or year. This mess didn't happen over night if you think about it. Even when it wasn't an issue there was probably some things that neither of you addressed early on. So the pain is not going to go away over night either. How long could it last. I've personally seen it take two years before the sting was gone. Was it worth it for them that stuck it out for two years? I would say yes.
Of course you have employed no tactics of your own, right?

Goliath

brettc,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Ted Hoffman

I think it was a mistake to agree to go to church (this is now becoming a cycle). Its a sign that you are ok with her approach - you are an accomplice to her being unrealistic because you are feeding her twisted worldview. You are not helping her or yourself by giving in to unrealistic, one-sided and unbalanced demands.

You can help her face reality instead of feeding her childish delusion. As brettc said, what she needs is a spanking (a serious, hard-hitting wake-up lecture) not candy and your-wish-is-my-command pacification.

She simply has to wake up. And grow up. You are a grown man. Grown ups make decisions. She has to deal with that. You are lowering your dignity by being part of a farce, part of a dishonest, misleading, self-contradictory act. The kids will wonder whats up with dad? her fundy friends will come to congratulate her.

You need to demonstrate that you too, have an alternative end to this misery and nonsense. Hers is divorce. What is yours Vicar? helpless acquiescence and caressing her bullshit? You have to be the grown up here if she has regressed to her childhood.

This is becoming a game for christs sake! The sooner you slam your foot down and end the nonsense the better. And the end of the nonsense does not have to be divorce.

Just the end of nonsense.

Ted Hoffman

Oh, about an atheist attending a christian service, a theological professor told me today:

HelenM

I see other people are saying "Don't stand for this!" but if I had to choose between going to listen to someone for an hour or so a week or being divorced I know what I'd choose.

I'm sure you're right - that you kids will figure out you don't believe. But I think it's good you told her you won't lie to them. Anyway, it's not as if everyone in the world believes except you. As they grow up they'll learn that some people are Christians and some aren't. And I don't see it's such a disastrous thing if you go to church and they see that sometimes people do things they wouldn't otherwise do, because it matters a lot to someone else.

I'm sorry about your guitar. But, if she wanted to talk and you were refusing I can understand her getting that angry. There are no limits on what angry people will do...

I hope today is a better day...

take care
Helen

Jackalope

Seebs, you are clearly not a musician. That was a low, low blow and I think she knows it. Look, when your spouse starts trying to destroy your possesions, it's a big red flag. Darren has already told us that she's had anger problems before (smashing the car's windshield). Truly, if my husband were acting that way, I'd be making plans to get the hell out to a safe place where he couldn't find me. The things Darren has been describing are all big red flags for ABUSE. She's already demonstrated that she's capable of mental abuse. I'd be worried about her trying to start a physical confrontation at this point.

Darren, get help now. If it comes to the very worst, have her put under 72 hour hold at the hospital. She's clearly a danger to others at this point.

--Lee