Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Debbie T · 12-19-2002, 04:45 PM

Making her a saint shows the world what saints are really made of. I think M.T. is being honored because of all the money she brought into the church. Especially to those that know the real story about M. T.

lpetrich · 12-19-2002, 04:54 PM

As to why no happily married couples, it is worth noting that according to traditional Catholic dogma, Joseph and Mary had had a celibate marriage, and Jesus Christ's "brothers" in the Gospels were really his half-brothers from a previous marriage that Joseph had had.

In fact, in the Church, a celibate marriage is sometimes called a "Josephite marriage", and some Catholics have considered that an ideal. The more zealous Opus Dei members are known to do that, for example.

And the idea that marriage is as good as single celibacy is an Officially Recognized Heresy, the Heresy of Jovinian.

lpetrich · 12-19-2002, 05:08 PM

I'm tempted to bring up Richard Carrier's favorite medieval saint, St. Genevieve; he had mentioned her and her miracles in his short version of "Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection".

By comparison to the miracles attributed to many medieval saints, MT's alleged miracle seems so paltry.

Did MT ever speak in several languages without having to learn them?
Did MT ever calm any storms?
Did MT ever miraculously fill an empty oil can with oil?
Did MT ever miraculously desalinate seawater?
Did MT ever point out any monster-containing trees?
Did a crab ever return a lost crucifix to MT?
Did MT ever cure blindness?
Did MT ever strike blind anyone who stole from her?
Did MT ever cause an earthquake in a town that blasphemed her?

All of these miracles have been attributed to St. Francis Xavier and St. Genevieve, two of the more notable saints of past centuries.

Oil lamps aren't very common these days, so I chose oil cans as an approximation.

Shake · 12-20-2002, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:

I agree. They'll find the second one they need to accomplish that sometime soon...

Yeah, and they're not gonna let the facts get in the way!

lpetrich · 12-21-2002, 11:39 AM

Might it be possible to predict what sort of miracle would be the next one attributed to her?

My guess is some seemingly miraculous recovery from disease, in the fashion of Monica Besra's disappearing stomach tumor. That's the main type of allegedly-genuine miracle these days.

And not the other sorts of miracles I've listed; I've yet to see any stories of how Mother Teresa had miraculously recharged some dead batteries.

Amie · 12-21-2002, 11:45 AM

I would think it would be something associated with healing in some way. I don't particularly think this first one is a miracle, but I do see Mother Teresa as having had a positive influence in many lives...

sullster · 12-21-2002, 01:53 PM

The Catholic church is clearly acting on a Third World strategy here. The actual miracle is a joke. Tumors in children disappear and it is not totally understood, but scientists think that the immumune system works against cancer in different ways. It is clearly medieval obscuritanism by the church to stick one of its miracles in an area of knowledge which is not complete.

They do not care. The prospect of converts in India and other countries full of impoverished believers is compelling. They then can go after the wealthier types who rule the societies. It is an ancient strategy. They are good at it.

Vorkosigan · 12-21-2002, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster:
The Catholic church is clearly acting on a Third World strategy here. .

Hey Sullster, have you read Philip Jenkins' interview over at the Atlantic?

<a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/int2002-09-12.htm" target="_blank">Jenkins' interview</a>

Jenkins discusses the future of Catholic Christianity and how it is going to be a Third World Church. Interesting insights.

Vorkosigan

lpetrich · 12-21-2002, 03:05 PM

In response to Amie, I note that Mother Teresa may well have made some people very happy. But my point is that that's not quite the sort of miracle that several saints of earlier centuries had been known for.

Was there once an "Age of Miracles" that has essentially come to an end?

12-21-2002, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:


By comparison to the miracles attributed to many medieval saints, MT's alleged miracle seems so paltry.

Did MT ever speak in several languages without having to learn them?
Did MT ever calm any storms?
Did MT ever miraculously fill an empty oil can with oil?
Did MT ever miraculously desalinate seawater?
Did MT ever point out any monster-containing trees?
Did a crab ever return a lost crucifix to MT?
Did MT ever cure blindness?
Did MT ever strike blind anyone who stole from her?
Did MT ever cause an earthquake in a town that blasphemed her?

All of these miracles have been attributed to St. Francis Xavier and St. Genevieve, two of the more notable saints of past centuries.

All I can say is:

Do people like Gemma and Amos actually believe that this shit really happened?

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12-19-2002, 04:45 PM	#11
Debbie T Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Washington the state Posts: 406	Making her a saint shows the world what saints are really made of. I think M.T. is being honored because of all the money she brought into the church. Especially to those that know the real story about M. T.

12-19-2002, 04:54 PM	#12
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	As to why no happily married couples, it is worth noting that according to traditional Catholic dogma, Joseph and Mary had had a celibate marriage, and Jesus Christ's "brothers" in the Gospels were really his half-brothers from a previous marriage that Joseph had had. In fact, in the Church, a celibate marriage is sometimes called a "Josephite marriage", and some Catholics have considered that an ideal. The more zealous Opus Dei members are known to do that, for example. And the idea that marriage is as good as single celibacy is an Officially Recognized Heresy, the Heresy of Jovinian.

12-19-2002, 05:08 PM	#13
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I'm tempted to bring up Richard Carrier's favorite medieval saint, St. Genevieve; he had mentioned her and her miracles in his short version of "Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection". By comparison to the miracles attributed to many medieval saints, MT's alleged miracle seems so paltry. Did MT ever speak in several languages without having to learn them? Did MT ever calm any storms? Did MT ever miraculously fill an empty oil can with oil? Did MT ever miraculously desalinate seawater? Did MT ever point out any monster-containing trees? Did a crab ever return a lost crucifix to MT? Did MT ever cure blindness? Did MT ever strike blind anyone who stole from her? Did MT ever cause an earthquake in a town that blasphemed her? All of these miracles have been attributed to St. Francis Xavier and St. Genevieve, two of the more notable saints of past centuries. Oil lamps aren't very common these days, so I chose oil cans as an approximation.

12-21-2002, 11:39 AM	#15
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Might it be possible to predict what sort of miracle would be the next one attributed to her? My guess is some seemingly miraculous recovery from disease, in the fashion of Monica Besra's disappearing stomach tumor. That's the main type of allegedly-genuine miracle these days. And not the other sorts of miracles I've listed; I've yet to see any stories of how Mother Teresa had miraculously recharged some dead batteries.

12-21-2002, 11:45 AM	#16
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	I would think it would be something associated with healing in some way. I don't particularly think this first one is a miracle, but I do see Mother Teresa as having had a positive influence in many lives...

12-21-2002, 01:53 PM	#17
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	The Catholic church is clearly acting on a Third World strategy here. The actual miracle is a joke. Tumors in children disappear and it is not totally understood, but scientists think that the immumune system works against cancer in different ways. It is clearly medieval obscuritanism by the church to stick one of its miracles in an area of knowledge which is not complete. They do not care. The prospect of converts in India and other countries full of impoverished believers is compelling. They then can go after the wealthier types who rule the societies. It is an ancient strategy. They are good at it.

12-21-2002, 03:05 PM	#19
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	In response to Amie, I note that Mother Teresa may well have made some people very happy. But my point is that that's not quite the sort of miracle that several saints of earlier centuries had been known for. Was there once an "Age of Miracles" that has essentially come to an end?

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