Steven Carr

Shandon Guthrie believes that a created being who, under all circumstances, in every conceivable world, always chooses one particular way, still had perfect free will when he made that choice.

Why then, can God not create beings with perfect free will, who in all worlds always choose good (perhaps after praying to God for strength and guidance about what is the correct decision)

http://examinedlifejournal.com/archi...0/drange.shtml is where Guthrie supposes there is a created being with perfect free will who never chooses evil (Guthrie actually has 'enrolls in a philosophy course', rather than 'choosing evil', but the logic is obviously very similar)

xorbie

There are two options. Either Shandon Guthrie is wrong, or you are intepreting it incorrectly. The way I see it, if Person X always does Action A in Situation S, he still has free will. This is to say, if you kept setting the clock back, X would always do A under these circumstances.

However, if X was created so that he could only do A in this situation, he has no free will.

I suppose a third option is that it is impossible to force people to do good, that is to say that an inherent necessary condition for good is complete and total free will.

Philosoft

What are "these circumstances"? I think, in order for X to freely do A, there must be a possible world in which X does ~A. "'X does A in S' in all possible worlds" is determinism, is it not?
In other words, 'X does A in S' is true in all possible worlds.

Steven Carr

You are interpreting Guthrie incorrectly. He has the example of somebody who always acts one way in ALL circumstances, not just in one particular situation.

atheisticyouth

Could it be that we dont have free will at all? Before you jump to conclusions, let me explain.

Okay, what if free will is just limited by our natural instinct, inteligence, circumstances, etc.? Here is my belief:

i have been thinking, and if god is perfect, all mighty, omnipotent, etc., then that means there is an infinite amount of possibility to what he is capable of, right?

well, first, when god was finished with his creation, he said it was good. if he is infinitly capable of anything, then there wouldnt be any good, there would just be a different level of difficulty to what he creates, or how well suited it is for the problem at hand.

second, if we have free will, then is it really free will? going on the lines of the first paragraph, there would be no extent to what free will is. although, there would have to be an end, for eventually we would be as strong, powerful, smart, (need i say, "free"?) as god? absolutely not. if there is no extent to gods powers, than we really dont have any free will, but are mearly subjects of play and control.

now, for the sceptical, dont say we have free will because you have experienced it, for realistically there is no extent to free will, and unless you are a "god", you have not experienced infinity yourself, have you?

part 2:

as for infinity, it can be argued if there really isnt such thing as infinity in the physical world, but only in the mental, or thought, or imaginary, world. if this is the case, it is a bold generalization for the following reasons:

1) there has to be something along the lines of infinity, for there cant be a beginning, for what was after the beggining of the beggining? or the beggining of the beggining of the beggining, etc.

2) if there isnt anything such as infinity beyond the mental world, then god isnt infinite, therefore isnt real, or is imperfect.


okay, here comes the fun part, (if we havent already gotten there)

it can also be said that god is not physical, but mental. in that case, he is either a figment of immagination, or christianity's god isnt the actual god.

in the latter case, that would mean we have no soul, spirit, or anything of the like. also, it is highly probobly that the god doesnt even promote the benefits of the christian god, ie, no heaven, hell, angels, etc.

to take it one last step further, many christians like to use ocam's razor in their debates, (), which i have despised up until just now;

what is easier to believe, that infinity is possible beyond the mental realm, even though there is logical proof against it

or that there is infact no god, or there is one, just not the christian god.


ps, not that i actually think ocam's razor is a plausable method of reason, but i thought it had some credibility concidering that so many theists refer to non stop.