Freethought & Rationalism Archive

winstonjen · 07-20-2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
I don't know, do you think it does? Atheists on this board have said they'd rather be in Hell than ever worship God, so maybe He is just letting them have what they want. God told you how to avoid Hell. There is no risk through Jesus Christ.

Isn't it obvious?!?! If hell is SO bad as to be the WORST thing possible, then anything would be preferable, including losing free will. Your god could easily do this, but doesn't, so he isn't all-loving, if he even exists.

Luiseach · 07-20-2003, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Because humans chose evil over good. How are we ever gonna learn if God just erases evil? Removing evil in the world also affects free will. If you can't commit evil, because God stops it, how can you make a choice to do good? You are forced to since any evil act you might want to do, is no longer possible.

Couldn't God have created creatures, and defined 'free will,' in a way that wouldn't necessitate evil? He is, after all, all-powerful.

Magus55 · 07-20-2003, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luiseach
Couldn't God have created creatures, and defined 'free will,' in a way that wouldn't necessitate evil? He is, after all, all-powerful.

Nope, because without the ability to go against God ( which is what evil is, the abscence of good), you can't make the choice to obey or disobey - all you could do is obey. Thats not free will.

Magus55 · 07-20-2003, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
Isn't it obvious?!?! If hell is SO bad as to be the WORST thing possible, then anything would be preferable, including losing free will. Your god could easily do this, but doesn't, so he isn't all-loving, if he even exists.

Yes He is, because He made it possible to have free will, and still avoid hell, despite disobeying Him. You get the best of both worlds, if you choose to accept His offer, which you obviously have no intention of doing. You have no one to blame but yourself and pride.

winstonjen · 07-20-2003, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Yes He is, because He made it possible to have free will, and still avoid hell, despite disobeying Him. You get the best of both worlds, if you choose to accept His offer, which you obviously have no intention of doing. You have no one to blame but yourself and pride.

No, I could blame god for not turning me into a robot, and for creating hell.

Luiseach · 07-21-2003, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Nope, because without the ability to go against God ( which is what evil is, the abscence of good), you can't make the choice to obey or disobey - all you could do is obey. Thats not free will.

If evil is the ability to disobey God, then God put that ability in his creatures, did he not?

Here's a hypothetical: let's say God, the all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good Creator, decided that he wanted to grant his creatures free will, but that he wanted them to always choose good freely. He could have made his creatures as all-good as he is...God is all-good, God never chooses evil over good, and God (presumably) has free will.

So, with God, free will and always choosing good can co-exist.

Now, why didn't he make his creatures in the same way?

I think this would have been possible for a being who is all-powerful.

All-powerful means all-powerful. Nothing is beyond the capabilities of an omnipotent God.

Roland98 · 07-21-2003, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55:

God is not a magic genie who runs to every spot in the world where evil is about to take place and stops it.

Which is exactly why I found the quote I posted earlier to be so absurd. He could guide them to a 2000 model car instead of a 1997, but couldn't prevent the accident in the first place? Or the WTC, as has been discussed? And on and on? So why do Christians feel that God takes the time to "grant" their petty little prayers for innane things, but yet can't be bothered to really intervene when it counts? How many of those who jumped from the building prayed to God to save them, do you think? Yet I read all the time testimonies of Christians who claim that God found them a home, or a new job, or a promotion, or a date, or the exact pair of jeans they were looking for. Puh-leeze.

Infidelettante · 07-21-2003, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
gave me no results for my time spent praying so I left the christian God for a new god.Hopefully ares will give me results.

If ares does not I will find a god eventually that will give me results from my prayers.

Mark, the Goddess Inanna has asked me to point out that no god whose name you do not capitalize will help you. She is always right about these things you know.

JT

Magus55 · 07-21-2003, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
No, I could blame god for not turning me into a robot, and for creating hell.

He didn't create Hell for you, you just choose to make it your eternal fate. Hell was NEVER created for humans.

winstonjen · 07-21-2003, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
He didn't create Hell for you, you just choose to make it your eternal fate. Hell was NEVER created for humans.

Then why can't I choose to go to heaven after I'm dead? Why does it have to be chosen through faith or lack thereof?

And if he didn't want me to go to hell, why did he create me, without my permission, no less, knowing that I would reject him and go to hell?

This is from Silent Dave's website. I think it sums up your 'arguments' very well.

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