Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SteveD · 03-30-2002, 09:37 AM

Somewhere I saw the idea that the name for the character of Joseph of Arimathea could have been derived form the historian Josephus, whose given name was Joseph ben Mattathias. My question is:

Was there actually such a place as Arimathea? If there was then I would not take the above idea very seriously. However, if there wasn't...

Woodeye · 03-30-2002, 02:17 PM

According to Tony Bushby, www.thebiblefraud.com ,Joseph of Arimathea was Jesus' stepfather, having married Jesus' mother Mary.

Toto · 03-30-2002, 02:46 PM

The whole question is explored here:

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/burial.html

(snip)

Quote:

This leads us naturally to the next question: was Joseph of Arimathea an historical person? We can immediately see the difficulty involved here, when we note that even the town of Arimathea is a fictitious town! As the scholar E. Goldin Hyman pointed out, there is no record in the Old Testament, Torah, Talmud or anywhere else except in the gospels of a place called Arimathea. [5] Attempts to identify the place with Ramathaim (I Maccabees 11:34) and Ramathaim-Zophim (I Samuel 1:1) is based on pure conjecture. [6] How certain can we be of the existence of a person who came from a non-existent town. . .

If he did not exist, the next question would be where Mark got his story (and the name) from. There is a very likely candidate for this. As the Jewish scholar, Hugh Schonfield [8], pointed out, the story of Joseph of Arimathea in the gospels resembles very closely an episode from Josephus' Autobiography.. . .

The similarity in the names of the main protagonist is also considerable. In the same work, Josephus elucidated his distinguished ancestry. His grandfather, also named Joseph, begot Matthias his father in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus (AD6). In the Greek text (the language Josephus wrote in) Joseph begot Matthias is rendered as Josepou Matthias. In Mark's gospel, Joseph of Arimathea is written in Greek as Joseph apo Arimathias, the similarity is curious. To quote Schonfield:

It is certainly curious that we have Josephus, himself a Josepou Matthias, begging the Roman commander for the bodies of three crucified friends, one of whom is brought back to life. [11]

I'm not totally convinced by the similarities in the stories, but it is entirely possible, especially when you consider the other similarities between the gospels and Josephus.

Sojourner553 · 03-30-2002, 02:53 PM

Interesting post. Here is another "similarity" between Josephus and the gospel stories:

Aside from the birth narratives, only Luke gives any information on Jesus'
childhood. Luke tells us that "the child [Jesus] grew, and waxed strong
in spirit, filled with wisdom..." It is also Luke that describes how at the
age of twelve, Jesus stayed on at the Temple in Jerusalem during one Passover,
astonishing all the learned people inside with his understanding and answers.

Despite the miraculous events surround the birth of their son, Jesus'
parents seemed to be slow in understanding Jesus' real purpose in the Temple:

"And he [Jesus] said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not
know that I must be in my Father's house? AND THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND
THE SAYING WHICH HE SPOKE TO THEM" (Luke 2:49-50).

There is an interesting parallel to Jesus' childhood genius that appears
in Josephus' biographical story of his own early life. In his LIFE 2:8,
Josephus boasts how, when he was about fourteen years old (51-52 C.E.), he
had impressed the chief priests and Jewish leaders, with his wisdom and
knowledge of Jewish scripture. During his teenage years, he then explored
various Jewish schools of learning, even becoming a Pharisee.

Sojourner

03-30-2002, 07:40 PM

I am convinced about the dual identity of Joseph and that Arimathea makes reference to the inner determination of Joseph. Joseph the "upright man" looked expectantly for the reign of God and requested the body of Jesus because in my view it was his own ego identity known as Joseph the Jew that had been convicted by Jewish law only. The tomb he had carved as if out of stone (hard work) with his own hands while he was the enterprising Joseph the Jew. The tomb was his conscious mind which at one time was the vacant stable in which he was reborn.

The childhood stories of Jesus in Luke make reference to the infancy of revealed wisdom from his fathers house (subconscious mind) as opposed to the learned knowledge from the conscious mind.

SteveD · 03-31-2002, 02:55 PM

Uh..Thanks Amos but I think you a bit too esoteric for me. I recognize the words that you are using as english but I hardly ever understand what you are talking about.

Steve

Kosh · 03-31-2002, 06:21 PM

OK, I'm a little confused on the whole
Josephus/Gospel parallel thing. Which one is
suspected of plagerizing the other? And how
could that be? Wasn't Josephus biography written
after the first Gospel? What would be his
motivation for copying the story?

Confused.

Pitshade · 03-31-2002, 06:56 PM

According to certain sources the last words of Joseph of Arimathea were, "He who is valiant and pure of spirit, may find the Holy Grail in the castle of Arrrrrrrr."

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Pitshade ]</p>

Kosh · 03-31-2002, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitshade

According to certain sources the last words of Joseph of Arimathea were, "He who is valiant and pure of spirit, may find the Holy Grail in the castle of Arrrrrrrr."

Don't be ridiculous. If he was dying, he
wouldn't write "arrrrrrr", he'd just say it!

No go away, or I shall fart in your general
direction!

Toto · 03-31-2002, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kosh

OK, I'm a little confused on the whole Josephus/Gospel parallel thing. Which one is suspected of plagerizing the other? And how could that be? Wasn't Josephus biography written after the first Gospel? What would be his motivation for copying the story?

Confused.

Luke and Josephus

Josephus wrote his Jewish War in 79 CE and his Testimonium in 94 CE. There is no indication that Josephus knew much if anything about Christianity. He ignores it as a movement in his history, and his two references to Jesus may have been added by later copyists.

Scholars argue that the authors (or editors or improvers) of the Gospel stories wrote sometime after 70 CE, but that is an educated guess. Some scholars argue for a much later date for the Gospels, and use the presumed influence from Josephus as evidence.

03-30-2002, 09:37 AM	#1
SteveD Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 118	Question re Joseph of Arimathea Somewhere I saw the idea that the name for the character of Joseph of Arimathea could have been derived form the historian Josephus, whose given name was Joseph ben Mattathias. My question is: Was there actually such a place as Arimathea? If there was then I would not take the above idea very seriously. However, if there wasn't...

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03-30-2002, 02:17 PM	#2
Woodeye Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 18	According to Tony Bushby, www.thebiblefraud.com ,Joseph of Arimathea was Jesus' stepfather, having married Jesus' mother Mary.

03-30-2002, 02:53 PM	#4
Sojourner553 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern US Posts: 817	Interesting post. Here is another "similarity" between Josephus and the gospel stories: Aside from the birth narratives, only Luke gives any information on Jesus' childhood. Luke tells us that "the child [Jesus] grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom..." It is also Luke that describes how at the age of twelve, Jesus stayed on at the Temple in Jerusalem during one Passover, astonishing all the learned people inside with his understanding and answers. Despite the miraculous events surround the birth of their son, Jesus' parents seemed to be slow in understanding Jesus' real purpose in the Temple: "And he [Jesus] said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house? AND THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE SAYING WHICH HE SPOKE TO THEM" (Luke 2:49-50). There is an interesting parallel to Jesus' childhood genius that appears in Josephus' biographical story of his own early life. In his LIFE 2:8, Josephus boasts how, when he was about fourteen years old (51-52 C.E.), he had impressed the chief priests and Jewish leaders, with his wisdom and knowledge of Jewish scripture. During his teenage years, he then explored various Jewish schools of learning, even becoming a Pharisee. Sojourner

03-30-2002, 07:40 PM	#5
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	I am convinced about the dual identity of Joseph and that Arimathea makes reference to the inner determination of Joseph. Joseph the "upright man" looked expectantly for the reign of God and requested the body of Jesus because in my view it was his own ego identity known as Joseph the Jew that had been convicted by Jewish law only. The tomb he had carved as if out of stone (hard work) with his own hands while he was the enterprising Joseph the Jew. The tomb was his conscious mind which at one time was the vacant stable in which he was reborn. The childhood stories of Jesus in Luke make reference to the infancy of revealed wisdom from his fathers house (subconscious mind) as opposed to the learned knowledge from the conscious mind.

03-31-2002, 02:55 PM	#6
SteveD Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 118	Uh..Thanks Amos but I think you a bit too esoteric for me. I recognize the words that you are using as english but I hardly ever understand what you are talking about. Steve

03-31-2002, 06:21 PM	#7
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	OK, I'm a little confused on the whole Josephus/Gospel parallel thing. Which one is suspected of plagerizing the other? And how could that be? Wasn't Josephus biography written after the first Gospel? What would be his motivation for copying the story? Confused.

03-31-2002, 06:56 PM	#8
Pitshade Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sugar Grove,NC Posts: 4,316	According to certain sources the last words of Joseph of Arimathea were, "He who is valiant and pure of spirit, may find the Holy Grail in the castle of Arrrrrrrr." [ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Pitshade ]</p>

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