Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Viti · 03-28-2002, 07:53 PM

Answerer although your English is a bit off; I can understand your points, so it is not important.

Most of the Roman Catholic miracles have not been proven using modern science. In fact, all of them are second hand or "heresay".

Lourdes is a good point in that in all the millions of people who have visited, 66 have reported "miracles" and I think only 1 or two have been this century (only 100 years ago we did not have antibiotics and other modern cures, so any sort of remission would be considered miraculous)

Answerer · 03-28-2002, 08:08 PM

Finally, someone who is more understanding and less prejudice. I choose this forum to discuss my views and opinions is mostly due to the fact that I believe most atheists to be more open-minded, instead guess what I found here. Most of them whom I have talked to here are either racists or nationlists and personally, I found no large gap between a religious fanatics and an extreme nationlist or racist, in short, they are both of a same kind.
Anyway, Ladyshea, so are you trying to claim that the apparition which was seen by 70000 christians is false and is not proven by modern science? But how can 70000 people see something that is false, well, what I mean is that it is quite impossible for 70000 people to be wrong at the same time.

leonarde · 03-28-2002, 08:48 PM

Answerer,
Perhaps I should have stated my interpretation
in my first post but, though a Roman Catholic is
NOT obligated to believe in the apparition at
Fatima, everything I know about it (my mother
first told me about it in the late 1950s)indicates
that "the miracle of the sun" was a real phenomenon which is utterly incompatible with
any naturalistic explanations: though "mass hallucination" is the phrase that is used to try
to denigrate the phenomenon, there really are no
such things as MASS hallucinations: even people
gathered together using hallucinogenic drugs tend
to hallucinate in very individual ways.
There are bound to be books about Fatima; I have
read a few about Lourdes down through the years
and that apparition is just as plausible as the
one at Fatima.
Cheers!

Viti · 03-28-2002, 09:13 PM

Staring directly at the sun is likely to cause retinal damage...human eyes will focus, unfocus and dart back and forth to avoid burns which may have been considered a "miracle" see <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/joe_nickell/miracles.html" target="_blank">here</a> for more refutations of Catholic miracles

edited for typos

[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]

Answerer · 03-29-2002, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:
Answerer,
Perhaps I should have stated my interpretation
in my first post but, though a Roman Catholic is
NOT obligated to believe in the apparition at
Fatima, everything I know about it (my mother
first told me about it in the late 1950s)indicates
that "the miracle of the sun" was a real phenomenon which is utterly incompatible with
any naturalistic explanations: though "mass hallucination" is the phrase that is used to try
to denigrate the phenomenon, there really are no
such things as MASS hallucinations: even people
gathered together using hallucinogenic drugs tend
to hallucinate in very individual ways.
There are bound to be books about Fatima; I have
read a few about Lourdes down through the years
and that apparition is just as plausible as the
one at Fatima.
Cheers!

Well Leonarde, your reply makes me wonder whether are you a christian or not? Nevertheless, your argument for the apparition sounds rather convincing and I have not meet any scientific explanations for it. Even though, people(especially the atheists) are skeptic but no one could fully prove that the apparition was just a mirage and nothing more. However, if the apparition is true, doesn't it shows that christinity is right and that we, the atheists, are wrong after all? So, it is better if anyone here can come up with other and better explanations than this.

Vorkosigan · 03-29-2002, 02:57 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Answerer:

Well Turtomn, just as I expect, you are here to give another stab on the chinese, is it? You will be disappointed to find out that I'm not from China and neither am I from Australia.

You know. I take back what I said. Have at this twit.

First, I was defending you. The rudeness of your reply is totally unwarranted.

Second, like I said, it was only my impression, your country of origin. All you had to do was politely correct me. Certainly, saying you are from China is not a "stab at China." Unless it reflects negatively on China to say you are from China.....come to think of it....

However, I certainly know more than you do about China, so please think carefully before you comment again.

Launching into a tirade at someone trying to defend you! What a hopeless paranoid you are!

In any course, Lourdes has been discussed incessantly in these forums. Search in BC&A and in EoG for the threads, just type in "Lourdes" in the search function in the appropriate forum from last year. If you had simply answered me politely, I'd have been happy to resurrect the threads for you. As it is, you can go find them yourself.

Michael

leonarde · 03-29-2002, 04:25 AM

Answerer,
No, I'm a Roman Catholic (RC), not an atheist.
I guess we are a minority on this board: I have
only been participating here 1 to 2 weeks. From
what I have seen there are at least 2 other active
members who are Roman Catholics here: Donnerkeil
and (?)Cipriani.
I wouldn't hold any rudeness against the atheists here: there are plenty of rude believers
too and I frequently think that rudeness is just
impetuousness at work. There are some VERY polite
atheists on this board too!
Cheers!

Jayhawker Soule · 03-29-2002, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Answerer:
Most of them whom I have talked to here are either racists or nationlists ...

Jerk!

I recommend that this childish crap get moved to the rant department (only because there's no 'Garbage Forum').

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]

Answerer · 03-30-2002, 01:17 AM

[quote]Originally posted by turtonm:

Quote:

Originally posted by Answerer:

You know. I take back what I said. Have at this twit.

First, I was defending you. The rudeness of your reply is totally unwarranted.

Second, like I said, it was only my impression, your country of origin. All you had to do was politely correct me. Certainly, saying you are from China is not a "stab at China." Unless it reflects negatively on China to say you are from China.....come to think of it....

Launching into a tirade at someone trying to defend you! What a hopeless paranoid you are!

In any course, Lourdes has been discussed incessantly in these forums. Search in BC&A and in EoG for the threads, just type in "Lourdes" in the search function in the appropriate forum from last year. If you had simply answered me politely, I'd have been happy to resurrect the threads for you. As it is, you can go find them yourself.

Michael

Well, you have not given me a good impression in the past, so there is a strong tendency for me to think that you are criticizing the chinese. Nevertheless, I apologize and if you don't accept it, I'm perfectly fine with it.

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: Answerer ]

[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: Answerer ]

Answerer · 03-30-2002, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt:


Jerk!

I recommend that this childish crap get moved to the rant department (only because there's no 'Garbage Forum').

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]

See with your own eyes, idiot. Even the christians that you despise behave better than you. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

03-28-2002, 09:13 PM	#14
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Staring directly at the sun is likely to cause retinal damage...human eyes will focus, unfocus and dart back and forth to avoid burns which may have been considered a "miracle" see <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/joe_nickell/miracles.html" target="_blank">here</a> for more refutations of Catholic miracles edited for typos [ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

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03-28-2002, 07:53 PM	#11
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Answerer although your English is a bit off; I can understand your points, so it is not important. Most of the Roman Catholic miracles have not been proven using modern science. In fact, all of them are second hand or "heresay". Lourdes is a good point in that in all the millions of people who have visited, 66 have reported "miracles" and I think only 1 or two have been this century (only 100 years ago we did not have antibiotics and other modern cures, so any sort of remission would be considered miraculous)

03-28-2002, 08:08 PM	#12
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Finally, someone who is more understanding and less prejudice. I choose this forum to discuss my views and opinions is mostly due to the fact that I believe most atheists to be more open-minded, instead guess what I found here. Most of them whom I have talked to here are either racists or nationlists and personally, I found no large gap between a religious fanatics and an extreme nationlist or racist, in short, they are both of a same kind. Anyway, Ladyshea, so are you trying to claim that the apparition which was seen by 70000 christians is false and is not proven by modern science? But how can 70000 people see something that is false, well, what I mean is that it is quite impossible for 70000 people to be wrong at the same time.

03-28-2002, 08:48 PM	#13
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Answerer, Perhaps I should have stated my interpretation in my first post but, though a Roman Catholic is NOT obligated to believe in the apparition at Fatima, everything I know about it (my mother first told me about it in the late 1950s)indicates that "the miracle of the sun" was a real phenomenon which is utterly incompatible with any naturalistic explanations: though "mass hallucination" is the phrase that is used to try to denigrate the phenomenon, there really are no such things as MASS hallucinations: even people gathered together using hallucinogenic drugs tend to hallucinate in very individual ways. There are bound to be books about Fatima; I have read a few about Lourdes down through the years and that apparition is just as plausible as the one at Fatima. Cheers!

03-29-2002, 02:57 AM	#16
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Answerer: Well Turtomn, just as I expect, you are here to give another stab on the chinese, is it? You will be disappointed to find out that I'm not from China and neither am I from Australia. You know. I take back what I said. Have at this twit. First, I was defending you. The rudeness of your reply is totally unwarranted. Second, like I said, it was only my impression, your country of origin. All you had to do was politely correct me. Certainly, saying you are from China is not a "stab at China." Unless it reflects negatively on China to say you are from China.....come to think of it.... However, I certainly know more than you do about China, so please think carefully before you comment again. Launching into a tirade at someone trying to defend you! What a hopeless paranoid you are! In any course, Lourdes has been discussed incessantly in these forums. Search in BC&A and in EoG for the threads, just type in "Lourdes" in the search function in the appropriate forum from last year. If you had simply answered me politely, I'd have been happy to resurrect the threads for you. As it is, you can go find them yourself. Michael

03-29-2002, 04:25 AM	#17
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Answerer, No, I'm a Roman Catholic (RC), not an atheist. I guess we are a minority on this board: I have only been participating here 1 to 2 weeks. From what I have seen there are at least 2 other active members who are Roman Catholics here: Donnerkeil and (?)Cipriani. I wouldn't hold any rudeness against the atheists here: there are plenty of rude believers too and I frequently think that rudeness is just impetuousness at work. There are some VERY polite atheists on this board too! Cheers!

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