Freethought & Rationalism Archive

butswana · 08-22-2002, 05:57 AM

My daughter just started 7th grade. The choir teacher has selected 3 songs for them to sing. All 3 have to do with praising the Lawd.
One of the song has(according to my kid)50,000 "hallelujahs", which literally means "praise the lord"(Yahweh specifically).
Another is from the movie "Sister Act", in which the teacher has the kids put thier hands together in mock prayer.
The last one is some slave spiritual song.
She is getting names of the songs today so I can investigate.
I wonder how many pieces of choral music this lady has to choose from. Thousands? This is what she comes up with?
My daughter(along with her cousin) has refused to sing the songs. She slapped the teacher with the 1st Amendment on the first day of school.
Am I about to go to war with the school? What say you?

Lady MacDuff · 08-22-2002, 06:34 AM

Declare war! If your daughter doesn't mind, of course. It sounds like your daughter is well informed enough about her rights to help you make a decision as to how far your family should take this. I'm sure that if you press her, the music teacher can come up with alternative songs. Try to get other parents on your side who might be opposed to their children being forced to sing religious/Christien songs, if other such parents exist. There is no reason children should be singing church songs in public schools! It is a public school, right?

Mecha_Dude · 08-22-2002, 06:43 AM

I'm going into 8th grade in about a week. Last year, in my PUBLIC school, we had a choir "Christmas Program". Most songs praising Jebus. I turned to the guy sitting next to me and told him I was an Atheist and that this was REALLY annoying. We got into an arguement, he got up and explained everything to a teacher. The principal promptly detained me for the remainder of the day.

During that time, he questioned me. I said it was a violation of the establishment clause. The vice principal said it was merely a "Celebration of music". I was thinking "Bullshit!". They said I had the right to leave if I had wanted to, and gave an example of a Jehova's Witness girl do did. I thought I shouldn't have to be subjected to it in the first place! Just goes to show ya, idiocy is alive and well...

[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Mecha_Dude ]</p>

simian · 08-22-2002, 06:43 AM

Assuming it is a public school, go for it. This kind of activity needs to be confronted when it appears. Sounds like you and your child are willing to go forward with this. I say do it.

Simian

Lady MacDuff · 08-22-2002, 07:12 AM

Quote:

The vice principal said it was merely a "Celebration of music". I was thinking "Bullshit!". They said I had the right to leave if I had wanted to, and gave an example of a Jehova's Witness girl do did.

MechaDude, you are right, that is TOTAL B/S!

Many, many public institutions have tried to mask their practice of Christian holy day rituals by simply changing the name to "Holiday Celebration" or "Winter Party", but they continue to include only Christian songs and traditions. You shouldn't have had to leave! There is absolutely no place for religious songs or celebrations in government institutions like public schools. You shouldn't be forced to opt out of a school event because it runs counter to your beliefs! Religious events don't belong there in the first place - they should take place in homes and churches!

Yeah I know you know all this already, but MAN! IT JUST MAKES ME SOOOOOO MAD WHEN I HEAR THIS STUFF!!! I can't wait to finish my degree and get out there in the public school system, teaching evolution and genetics and REFUSING to say "under god"!

RichardMorey · 08-22-2002, 07:56 AM

Don't go overboard with this. Remember that much of the art music that has been composed has been for the (Christian) church, and that the United States has a very strong religious folk music tradition. To refuse to sing a spiritual or a Laudamus Te or a requiem mass simply because it references a deity would be ridiculous.

I am a singer, and went to a performing arts public high school. In order to better learn music theory (in particular, functional harmony and four-part writing), we sight-read and analysed hymns from church hymn books that our instructor had brought from church. There is no better collection of decent four-part writing than a traditional hymnal.

We sang the Mozart Requiem our senior year in High School, and our Principal refused to print the translation from the Latin. He said it would violate the Separation of Church and State. That made me furious! First, because it is dishonest; the words have meaning whether or not you translate them. By not translating them, you are simply hiding from the audience what you are singing about. Second, because it is a piece of art. The reason why we sang it was primarily because it was great art and not because it was Christian.

There is a legitimate secular purpose to singing much religious music in public schools - it is art.

That having been said, remember that there is a lot of inferior religious music out there. This has little value in an educational setting. If your teacher is having you sing this stuff, her purpose is probably religious. Much of that stuff is written for church chior directors to fill up their music quota. It is trash (Especially contemporary Christian music).

And also, the kind of commentary that comes from your teacher while explaining the interpretation of this music can go across what is acceptible.
Keep that in mind.

This is an issue that is important to me as a musician, and I understand that it is not, by any means, black-and-white. On one hand, I don't want children to be preached at using music. On the other, I don't want judges to decide what is art and what is not. This is a tough issue.

Understand that, and don't be too confrontational. But don't let then trample on your rights, either.

Ab_Normal · 08-22-2002, 09:36 AM

I was in choir in public high school, and I'd guess that about 1/3 of the songs were religious in nature (either classical or spirituals). It would seem to me that your daughter's teacher is pushing an agenda.

choochmom · 08-22-2002, 11:07 AM

Gee is your daughter going to the same school as my kids? J/K. The choir teacher at the middle school here wears her Christianity on her sleeve. She annoys me. Every program that my dd (and now my ds) has ever been in has had a minimum of 1 Christian song. Mostly though, it is more likely a maximum of 1 secular song. Religious music usually doesn't bother me, and I think some of it is either pretty or fun to sing, and I will actively seek it out on the dial at Christmas time. But, when she teaches them exclusively Christian music it bothers me. I would be thrilled to hear an occasional Kwanza song, or Hannakuh song during the Holiday concert. Don't the Hindu's and Buddist's have music? How about Native American music? Instead they get the audience to join in in a rendition of 'Oh Come All Ye Faithful', or 'Away in a Manger'. I'm such a wimp though and I've never said anything to her.

Michelle

Rusting Car Bumper · 08-22-2002, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by butswana:
<strong>My daughter just started 7th grade. The choir teacher has selected 3 songs for them to sing. All 3 have to do with praising the Lawd.
One of the song has(according to my kid)50,000 "hallelujahs", which literally means "praise the lord"(Yahweh specifically).
Another is from the movie "Sister Act", in which the teacher has the kids put thier hands together in mock prayer.
The last one is some slave spiritual song.
She is getting names of the songs today so I can investigate.
I wonder how many pieces of choral music this lady has to choose from. Thousands? This is what she comes up with?
My daughter(along with her cousin) has refused to sing the songs. She slapped the teacher with the 1st Amendment on the first day of school.
Am I about to go to war with the school? What say you?</strong>

Well I think it would have been better to remain anonymous and then take it to some official like the principal or even higher. Do it through a mail paper trail so that you have evidence on paper.

If it was me I'd even consider doing it through an attorney to help preserve anonimity. However, it seems anonimity is blown here.

A paper trail with responses in writing I think would aid your cause. Words on paper cannot be denied later.

DC

Oxidizing Material · 08-22-2002, 11:27 AM

I'd have your daughter learn some Inkubus Sukkubus lyrics (they're a Wiccan group) that disguise themselves as Christian names, like "Church of Madness" or "Wake Of The Christian Knights"

Wake Of The Christian Knights

From old Rome they come a-riding
On a song with armour shining
Christian sons with hearts of anger
Bring the book, the cross, the cancer
Hallelujah, hallelujah, kiss the cross or they will burn you
Hallelujah, hallelujah, they have come to rape and murder

Tell them we've had it all
They've had their day now they shall fall
Tell them of the turning tide
They can run but they can't hide

Across a sea of tears and blood
Across a scape of murdered babies
They will cleanse and purify
For their Christ and for their Lady
They will take the joy of love and
name it as a badge of shame
They will steal and they will plunder
They will tell you you're to blame

On the wheel and on the gibbet
Broken bodies, broken dreams
In the churches, the sheep, the traitors
Now they are both pure and clean
Hallelujah, hallelujah
Hallelujah, hallelujah
Hallelujah, hallelujah
Hallelujah, hallelujah

Church Of Madness

Here come the Christian knights
Dressed in red and white
To bring the Holy Word and set the world alight
Here comes a plague of idiots blinded by their faith
Here comes the Inquisition to burn you at the stake
Here comes the Church of Madness
Bearing gifts of death and torture
Here comes the Church of Madness
Of Jesus Christ their Lord
The fire and the fury
To be our judge to be our jury
Here comes the Church of Madness
Of Jesus Christ their Lord
A new dark age descending, it's Torquemada's dream
Liberty lies raped, crushed, broken
Neath the Christian war machine
Nation after nation falling
In the shadow of the Christian sword
With death they bring the lore of love
What do they tell the people of their old crusades?
Of the women and the children
Impaled on Christian blades
Rejoice they say for we are saved
And we must sing the fight
Sing it till your lungs burst or they'll set you alight

They're really nice songs.

[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Oxidizing Material ]</p>

08-22-2002, 05:57 AM	#1
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	Christian choir teacher My daughter just started 7th grade. The choir teacher has selected 3 songs for them to sing. All 3 have to do with praising the Lawd. One of the song has(according to my kid)50,000 "hallelujahs", which literally means "praise the lord"(Yahweh specifically). Another is from the movie "Sister Act", in which the teacher has the kids put thier hands together in mock prayer. The last one is some slave spiritual song. She is getting names of the songs today so I can investigate. I wonder how many pieces of choral music this lady has to choose from. Thousands? This is what she comes up with? My daughter(along with her cousin) has refused to sing the songs. She slapped the teacher with the 1st Amendment on the first day of school. Am I about to go to war with the school? What say you?

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08-22-2002, 06:34 AM	#2
Lady MacDuff Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 180	Declare war! If your daughter doesn't mind, of course. It sounds like your daughter is well informed enough about her rights to help you make a decision as to how far your family should take this. I'm sure that if you press her, the music teacher can come up with alternative songs. Try to get other parents on your side who might be opposed to their children being forced to sing religious/Christien songs, if other such parents exist. There is no reason children should be singing church songs in public schools! It is a public school, right?

08-22-2002, 06:43 AM	#3
Mecha_Dude Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Everywhere... I'm Watching you... Posts: 1,019	I'm going into 8th grade in about a week. Last year, in my PUBLIC school, we had a choir "Christmas Program". Most songs praising Jebus. I turned to the guy sitting next to me and told him I was an Atheist and that this was REALLY annoying. We got into an arguement, he got up and explained everything to a teacher. The principal promptly detained me for the remainder of the day. During that time, he questioned me. I said it was a violation of the establishment clause. The vice principal said it was merely a "Celebration of music". I was thinking "Bullshit!". They said I had the right to leave if I had wanted to, and gave an example of a Jehova's Witness girl do did. I thought I shouldn't have to be subjected to it in the first place! Just goes to show ya, idiocy is alive and well... [ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Mecha_Dude ]</p>

08-22-2002, 06:43 AM	#4
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	Assuming it is a public school, go for it. This kind of activity needs to be confronted when it appears. Sounds like you and your child are willing to go forward with this. I say do it. Simian

08-22-2002, 07:56 AM	#6
RichardMorey Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Missouri Posts: 112	Don't go overboard with this. Remember that much of the art music that has been composed has been for the (Christian) church, and that the United States has a very strong religious folk music tradition. To refuse to sing a spiritual or a Laudamus Te or a requiem mass simply because it references a deity would be ridiculous. I am a singer, and went to a performing arts public high school. In order to better learn music theory (in particular, functional harmony and four-part writing), we sight-read and analysed hymns from church hymn books that our instructor had brought from church. There is no better collection of decent four-part writing than a traditional hymnal. We sang the Mozart Requiem our senior year in High School, and our Principal refused to print the translation from the Latin. He said it would violate the Separation of Church and State. That made me furious! First, because it is dishonest; the words have meaning whether or not you translate them. By not translating them, you are simply hiding from the audience what you are singing about. Second, because it is a piece of art. The reason why we sang it was primarily because it was great art and not because it was Christian. There is a legitimate secular purpose to singing much religious music in public schools - it is art. That having been said, remember that there is a lot of inferior religious music out there. This has little value in an educational setting. If your teacher is having you sing this stuff, her purpose is probably religious. Much of that stuff is written for church chior directors to fill up their music quota. It is trash (Especially contemporary Christian music). And also, the kind of commentary that comes from your teacher while explaining the interpretation of this music can go across what is acceptible. Keep that in mind. This is an issue that is important to me as a musician, and I understand that it is not, by any means, black-and-white. On one hand, I don't want children to be preached at using music. On the other, I don't want judges to decide what is art and what is not. This is a tough issue. Understand that, and don't be too confrontational. But don't let then trample on your rights, either.

08-22-2002, 09:36 AM	#7
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	I was in choir in public high school, and I'd guess that about 1/3 of the songs were religious in nature (either classical or spirituals). It would seem to me that your daughter's teacher is pushing an agenda.

08-22-2002, 11:07 AM	#8
choochmom New Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 1	Gee is your daughter going to the same school as my kids? J/K. The choir teacher at the middle school here wears her Christianity on her sleeve. She annoys me. Every program that my dd (and now my ds) has ever been in has had a minimum of 1 Christian song. Mostly though, it is more likely a maximum of 1 secular song. Religious music usually doesn't bother me, and I think some of it is either pretty or fun to sing, and I will actively seek it out on the dial at Christmas time. But, when she teaches them exclusively Christian music it bothers me. I would be thrilled to hear an occasional Kwanza song, or Hannakuh song during the Holiday concert. Don't the Hindu's and Buddist's have music? How about Native American music? Instead they get the audience to join in in a rendition of 'Oh Come All Ye Faithful', or 'Away in a Manger'. I'm such a wimp though and I've never said anything to her. Michelle

08-22-2002, 11:27 AM	#10
Oxidizing Material Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Somewhere where I don't know where I am Posts: 2,069	I'd have your daughter learn some Inkubus Sukkubus lyrics (they're a Wiccan group) that disguise themselves as Christian names, like "Church of Madness" or "Wake Of The Christian Knights" Wake Of The Christian Knights From old Rome they come a-riding On a song with armour shining Christian sons with hearts of anger Bring the book, the cross, the cancer Hallelujah, hallelujah, kiss the cross or they will burn you Hallelujah, hallelujah, they have come to rape and murder Tell them we've had it all They've had their day now they shall fall Tell them of the turning tide They can run but they can't hide Across a sea of tears and blood Across a scape of murdered babies They will cleanse and purify For their Christ and for their Lady They will take the joy of love and name it as a badge of shame They will steal and they will plunder They will tell you you're to blame On the wheel and on the gibbet Broken bodies, broken dreams In the churches, the sheep, the traitors Now they are both pure and clean Hallelujah, hallelujah Hallelujah, hallelujah Hallelujah, hallelujah Hallelujah, hallelujah Church Of Madness Here come the Christian knights Dressed in red and white To bring the Holy Word and set the world alight Here comes a plague of idiots blinded by their faith Here comes the Inquisition to burn you at the stake Here comes the Church of Madness Bearing gifts of death and torture Here comes the Church of Madness Of Jesus Christ their Lord The fire and the fury To be our judge to be our jury Here comes the Church of Madness Of Jesus Christ their Lord A new dark age descending, it's Torquemada's dream Liberty lies raped, crushed, broken Neath the Christian war machine Nation after nation falling In the shadow of the Christian sword With death they bring the lore of love What do they tell the people of their old crusades? Of the women and the children Impaled on Christian blades Rejoice they say for we are saved And we must sing the fight Sing it till your lungs burst or they'll set you alight They're really nice songs. [ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Oxidizing Material ]</p>

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