Freethought & Rationalism Archive

11-28-2002, 01:36 AM

Greetings,

I'm happy to be Answerer's answerer

:

<a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/" target="_blank">Jewish references</a>

Q.

Answerer · 11-29-2002, 01:57 AM

Hi, thanks for your help. Anyway, I feel that other than the first site, which directly claimed Jesus' existence, the other sites don't actually 'suggest' the name 'Jesus'. So, in the end, we still don't have much evidences regarding the existence of Jesus.

Steven Carr · 11-29-2002, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wave Man:
W

It is also interesting to note that the Jewish polemic writings from the time, disclaiming his divinity, resurrection etc, doesn't dispute the claim that he existed.

In fact they don't even exist. There are no Jewish polemic writings from the time.

Quote:

Like I said, this is quite apart from the Gospels, written about him in a time in an organization led by people who were alive during his lifetime. And among whom many were killed for their faith. Regardless of what you think of his divinity, I do not believe that so many would have given up their lives for what they knew from their own experience to be a lie.

Of course, people do that all the time, especially if the lie is in a greater cause.

Was every soldier who fought in Vietnam convinced of the American dream?

As it happens, the Christians did die for a lie -, unless you believed they really did set fire to Rome.

But perhaps you can name one Christian who died for preaching a resurrection. Just one. (Stephen apparently died for saying Jesus went to Heaven, a belief which was hardly controversial among Jews. You can search Acts high and low for a statement be Stephen that the resurrected Jesus had been on Earth, rather than Heaven)

As always, we must turn to the Bible. Paul, who was actually there, makes clear in Galatians that ciurcumcision, not resurrection, was the issue and that church leaders were quite prepapred to compromise their beliefs to avoid being persecuted for the *cross* (Paul meant to say resurrection, of course, probably just a slip of the pen on his part), of Christ.

Sojourner553 · 12-01-2002, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wave Man:

It is also interesting to note that the Jewish polemic writings from the time, disclaiming his divinity, resurrection etc, doesn't dispute the claim that he existed. They do not even question that he did miracles, only by which power he did them. I do not mean that reference in the gospels, I'm talking about non-gospel writings.

Yes, but the common view among Jesus' contemporaries was that there were LOTS of people running around proclaiming themselves false mesiahs and/or performing miracles.

Quote:

By the time of Jesus' birth some thirty years later, the whole area of Palestine was still brimming with messianic fervor. The messiah was believed to not only free the people from their current oppression and misery under the Romans, but to introduce a new Golden Age of world peace, as prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets.

Some Jews were looking for a POLITICAL messiah that would deliver the people from foreign, heathen domination following the model of Moses,
Joshua, and David himself. Others looked for a religious or PROPHET-like messiah in the style of an Elijah or Elisha. Interestingly, the Essenes
sect believed there would be TWO separate messiahs--a priestly messiah in the model of Aaron, and a kingly messiah fitting the model of David!

Thus around the time when Jesus was born, a social-political crisis had been building up for the previous two hundred years. The whole
area was brimming with messianic fervor and hope. Against this background, many "false" prophets would rise up to fulfill these prophecies.

and

Quote:

Some religious Jews would read biblical texts, and attempt to apply these to their own seemingly terrible) situation. Thus, when they would read, ffor example, references to the "anointed" one (or Messiah)--since the line of Davidic kings no llonger existed, some would interpret these passages allegorically to mean some "future" king. This king, or Messiah, it was believed, would be sanctioned by God Himself, and as the situation became increasingly desperate-- would be imparted with divine powers in order to fight off the enemies of God.

As we have seen, during the times of Jesus, there were several messianic/ prophetic movements. The presence of these movements was not unknown to the gospel writers. For example, according to the gospel of Matthew, Jesus
reportedly warns his followers against these false leaders:

"Then if any man shall say unto you. Lo here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect.. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." (Matthew 24:23-6).

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/REVOLT.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/REVOLT.TXT</a>
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

No where does even the gospel writers show Jesus desputing that the miracles of these other miracle workers as being false.

Which is why Wave man--

I find it interesting that all the miracles ascribed to Jesus were SIMILAR to the stories of Jewish and pagan miracles -- including holding the SAME superstitious beliefs --such as belief that demons were the cause of all mental illness !!!

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/MIRACLE.TXT</a>

Sojourner

[ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

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11-28-2002, 01:36 AM	#21
Iasion Guest Posts: n/a	Greetings, I'm happy to be Answerer's answerer : <a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/" target="_blank">Jewish references</a> Q.

11-29-2002, 01:57 AM	#22
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Hi, thanks for your help. Anyway, I feel that other than the first site, which directly claimed Jesus' existence, the other sites don't actually 'suggest' the name 'Jesus'. So, in the end, we still don't have much evidences regarding the existence of Jesus.

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