Vanderzyden

Hello,

I am relatively new to Infidels, posting over in Evolution/Creation. If you don't mind, I would like to raise an issue that infrequently arises in the E/C dialogues.

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It is certain that we are all moving toward the Last Horizon. I speak of physical death. But what type of event will it be?

My contention is that most people have not given proper attention to their journey toward this unavoidable destination. Often, we see emotional responses in the context of a tragedy, but the urgency quickly fades, and life goes on. Others avoid the subject entirely or make jokes.

So, I like to ask such people, "Are you ready?"

A typical reply goes like this:

"Ready for what? I will stop laughing when I am dead, thank you, and only because I will cease to exist, and for no other reason."

How are we to interpret such a response? Is it:

-- a nervous "giggle" because she's not really thought this through?
-- actual indifference concerning her impending death
-- that she somehow has uniquely privileged information so that she knows with absolute certainty that she will cease to exist when she dies?


I have my own ideas, but I'd like to learn from people here: what are the most convincing demonstrations that may be brought forward in this discussion?

My assertions:

1. No one is indifferent toward their death.
2. No one knows with certainty what occurs immediately following death.
3. It is worth thinking carefully about and learning what evidence exists.
4. To avoid the question entirely is to make a grave mistake (pun intended).


Vanderzyden

K

Vanderzyden:

I'd probably go along with your first two assertions. I think the next two assume some kind of afterlife. If we cease to exist when we die (which is extremely likely since "we" are our brains and bodies), then your last two assertions are meaninless.

K

By the way, why is this in Biblical Criticism?

doubtingt

I'll accept your first assertion.
I'll accept your 2nd assertion only in the sense
that certain knowledge of anything is impossible.
Your 3rd assertion is a matter of values not a question of fact, but I still agree with you.
However, all the evidence we have suggests
that everything we experience subjectively,
our thoughts, emotions, goals, beliefs, etc.
are produced by and cannot exitst without our brains. In fact they could not exist even within
a frogs brain, let alone no brain at all.
Which brings us back to your second assertion,
which though technically correct, fails to acknowledge that some theories about what happens
are light years more probable than others, in
light of what we do know and the afterlife hypotheses is the least likely of all.
Your 4th assertion is also a matter of values not fact, but again I agree that giving thought
to one's death is worthwhile, although probably
far less a "grave mistake" than going through life
lying to oneself about its finality.

-DM-

This topic does not belong in Biblical Criticism & Archaeology. It is therefore being moved to Miscellaneous Religion Discussions.

Please familiarize yourself with the intended purpose of a forum before starting off-topic threads.

-Don-

NOGO

The evidence goes as follows:

Fact
We know that when people get head injuries they forget things. In extreme cases people have forgotten many years of their lives, including not recognizing wife and children.

Fact
Injuries also result in loss of mental functionality. Not only not being able to walk for example but also not being able to think.

Fact
People with head injuries have become vegetables.

Fact
As we grow old some people lose memory, faculty of speech, and even the ability to think. I have experienced this first hand.

Injuries or age show signs of brain deterioration which lead to loss of thought and personality.

When you die all your cells die and all functions which make you an intelligent human being die.

That is the evidence that we have.

As unpleasant as death may be there is no evidence that any part of us survives it.

You can spent all you life thinking about it and it wont change a thing.

Amie

I died when I was 19, for 12 minutes so I do not think this is all we have. I believe death is a transition.
Amie~

Philosoft

I think the colloquial use of "died" here is unwarranted. I suspect what you mean is your heart stopped for 12 minutes. I also suspect you had a <a href="http://skepdic.com/nde.html" target="_blank">near-death experience</a>. There is a surprisingly robust body of evidence for a natural cause for NDEs. In particular, the tranquilizer Ketamine has reliably reproduced many NDE features. I doubt this will change your opinion of your experience, but it's something to think about.

Amos

1)A good beginning would be to invest nothing in your afterlife so nobody owes you anything.

2) Exactly, so nobody has the right to make you any promises.

3)All the evidence points at a complete disposal of the human body.

4)From my point of view sick people worry about their health and dying people worry about the life.

Amie

yes Philosoft,
I am aware of the scientific data, all I did for the year following was research the medical possibilities and the scientific explanations, and you are right, it does not alter my perception of the event at all. I WAS pronounced Dead by a medical Doctor in a trauma room, therefore I used the term "died"
Amie~