Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Talulah · 11-29-2002, 12:51 PM

Back when I had access to university journals and the like, I read a lot of the studies that I could find on the subject of corporal punishment.

I was really never under the impression that children who are spanked don't behave as well, nor do I really doubt its effectiveness. I know from personal experiance that spanking does pretty much accomplish compliance, at least while you think there is someone there watching.

Needless to say there is a huge difference between someone who got 5 spankings in their entire childhood and someone who got 1 a week.

I know people who were spanked very few times who are perfectly well adjusted. Of course, I know people who think they are well adjusted who aren't as well. However, to say that those kids (now adults) who show signs that spanking harmed them were just 'abused' is falacious imo.

I think that spanking promotes and passes on the idea that violence against someone smaller and weaker than you is acceptable. Whether we think the ideas that spanking promotes are wrong is another matter.

diana · 11-29-2002, 02:00 PM

Quote:

however, the biases and confounds in the meta-analyses may limit any causal inferences that can be drawn concerning the detrimental "effects" of CP on associated child behaviors. In other words, undesirable child outcomes associated with CP in the included studies may have been due to inept and/or harsh parenting.

In order to demonstrate that spanking in moderation doesn't harm children, we argue that Person A is well-adjusted, and Person A was spanked as a child. Since Person B isn't well-adjusted, Person B is likely to have been "abused" (spanked wrong/too much/too hard).

The last sentence of the quote above strikes me as circular reasoning, since it only "follows" from the conclusion that spanking in itself isn't harmful (therefore, if harm is done, the child was obviously abused).

A: child was spanked but not abused
B: child grows up to a well-adjusted adult

A-->B, therefore ~A-->~B. Denying the antecedent?

d

Dr Rick · 11-29-2002, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana:
In order to demonstrate that spanking in moderation doesn't harm children...

That is a "strawman" argument; there was no claim in the post you challenge that "demonstrate[s] that spanking in moderation doesn't harm children." It was a brief review of the recent literature and a subjective analysis of its potential weaknesses, not an assertion that spanking isn't harmful.

Quote:

The last sentence of the quote above strikes me as circular reasoning, since it only "follows" from the conclusion that spanking in itself isn't harmful (therefore, if harm is done, the child was obviously abused).

The quote in question, "undesirable child outcomes associated with CP in the included studies may have been due to inept and/or harsh parenting." does not support your conclusion at all; it merely points out that there are methodologic flaws that may confound interpretation of the data. Forthrightly acknowledging potential confounders is valid and honest, not circular.

My post pointed-out that the available objective data on CP is inadequate and inconclusive, nothing more.

Rick

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Dr Rick ]

Sabine Grant · 11-30-2002, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana:


Why is the object for children to be obedient? I don't mean to impose my definition on you, but "obedience" sounds to me like training--something that is done for hope of reward or out of fear of punishment.

Seems to me as though it would be more useful for the child to learn.

Another thought to toss into the conversation: my mother was(is) a disciplinarian. She believed in spanking children to keep them in line (with her expectations). My father was not. He merely told us when he was disappointed in us, but accepted early on that we were different people and may or may not live up to his expectations for us. Throughout my formative years, I feared displeasing my mother because I'd get "worn out" for it, but I worked hard to avoid displeasing my father because I didn't want to disappoint him.

I feared my mother, but I respected my father.*

I still think my father had the right idea all along. I also think my mother's use of force and fear was more about her need to control others than it was about "what was good for us."

d

*While I still respect my father, the fear I had of my mother was exchanged for disgust and pity when I came of age. I still believe the need to force your will on others belies your own fear and weakness, and little else.

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]

The hug is there to reassure the child that love prevails in any situation.

Of course kids need to learn and not just obey blindly.However, learning is a process. Noone is born with the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. It has to be taught. Obedience comes as a mean for the child who was already presented with what is right and what is wrong to consider that mom or dad do know what is right and what is wrong. Or should young children be left to their own understanding of that concept?

Once a child becomes aware and understands the difference between right and wrong, the same child can still choose to not do what is right. Obedience then becomes necessary.

I do not belive that all children who get in trouble do it because " they do not know better".

It is unfortunatly part of our humanity to allow ourselves to choose wrong over right if we simply do not like what is right.
Are we also to eliminate laws that are existant to insure that the individuals who are somewhat rebellious do comply for fear of consequences? or do we consider all human beings as willing to all cooperate and spare the rest of mankind as a result?

Blankman · 11-30-2002, 10:53 PM

Not to jump in the middle of your discussion, but I was listening to a fundy radio station the other day and they said spanking, according to the Bible, was okay (as a last resort). However, they suggested using some object to do the spanking with, that way your hand doesn't do the actual spanking. Huh? Yep, that's what they said. Personally, I do something (although rarely) that my Dad did with me instead of spanking. Pinching. Yes pinching. I didn't mind the spanking from my mother so much, but when I was threatened with pinch by my Dad, I straightened up real fast. I can truthfully say that I have never struck my children.

Nira · 11-30-2002, 11:09 PM

Quote:

1.) Do you believe in spanking under any circumstances?

No

Quote:

2.) If you don't agree with corporal punishment, do you think those who use it should be punished?

Yes, I am willing to give children �rights� that includes not being subjected to corporal punishment.

Quote:

3.) If you don't agree with spanking, do you still see some reasonable situation where it might be called for, or useful?

No.

My parents were foster parents for some rather ill adjusted children, and they were perfectly able to modify their behavior, and I would say provide what the children needed in their life, without using corporal punishment.

They did not even raise their voices much. It was more a matter of being firm and consistent.

Spanking is a lazy form of child raising. You try to get results without putting in the work necessary.

Claudia · 12-02-2002, 06:00 AM

I consider that it is important for my kids to be never afraid to report to me something they have done wrong (to be able to repair before it is too late). I consider that CP (or harsh psychological punishment) goes contrary to this goal.

Marruk · 12-02-2002, 07:10 AM

I'm against spanking in all instances. When the child is young, as others have already stated a simple yell of no and then removing the child from danger works quite nicely. And when the child is older there are all sorts of different ways to disciplin the child without violence. IMO spanking is just lazy parenting. It produces an emediate effect, and thus so many parents are too quick to use this as disciplin. It takes more time and effort to use an alternate form of punishment (like telling a child instead of going to chucky cheese they get to have a PBJ for dinner, and denighing themselves the joy and planning that they had made to share with their child)

I havn't any children of my own, but as a child I was spanked almost every day when I was young. It didn't work, sure I would stop being bad when my mother spanked me, but after the pain wore away I would be right back at it (I was, and always have been fearless). Also it made me somewhat socially inept, because through my mothers spankings I learned to deal with my problems with violence. I still regret beating up my little brother and sisters and I truely feel that if my mother had not taught me to be so aggressive that I wouldn't have physically hurt my siblings as much. I feel this way because my younger siblings were not spanked (one is step form a different mother, and I took all the punishment for my brother) and they were not violent twards other people. (I am no longer violent towards other people, but it took me a lot longer to mature then it did for them) Just my 2 cents.

Vesica · 12-02-2002, 09:22 AM

I'm with Sabine....

I am pro-spanking in very specific instances, based on my own childhood. There were only two offences that could result in spanking in my house; doing something you had been told not to that put your life at risk (like riding a bike into the street without looking) or looking your parents straight in the eye and lying (when they had definite evidence you were lying). In all I probably got 4 spankings in my entire childhood.

I was rarely spanked right after the event...Rather the offence was explained to me and that I would be spanked in a few hours...The longest delay was 4 days when I had told a huge lie and my mother specifically refused to punish me in any way because she was still mad. Spankings were 10-15 'swats' to the buttocks with the bare hand...they stung a little but never lasted or made marks. The main issue was to have me think about what I had done and state specifically why I was being spanked before the punishment commenced.

My parents employed other means of discipline like restricting TV watching, extra chores and grounding but I left childhood with no fears of them or lingering 'abuse' issues. As I remeber the spankings themselves were no big deal, it was the waiting and articulating why and what specifically I would not be doing in the future.

In general, I think there is a fine line to walk when debating CP and children. There are many times in a child's young life when they are handled less than gently for thier own protection...when is it wrong?? My parents argued that the whole spanking ritual was to make a big deal out of the offence so I would remeber next time the consequences of my actions.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-29-2002, 12:51 PM	#31
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	Back when I had access to university journals and the like, I read a lot of the studies that I could find on the subject of corporal punishment. I was really never under the impression that children who are spanked don't behave as well, nor do I really doubt its effectiveness. I know from personal experiance that spanking does pretty much accomplish compliance, at least while you think there is someone there watching. Needless to say there is a huge difference between someone who got 5 spankings in their entire childhood and someone who got 1 a week. I know people who were spanked very few times who are perfectly well adjusted. Of course, I know people who think they are well adjusted who aren't as well. However, to say that those kids (now adults) who show signs that spanking harmed them were just 'abused' is falacious imo. I think that spanking promotes and passes on the idea that violence against someone smaller and weaker than you is acceptable. Whether we think the ideas that spanking promotes are wrong is another matter.

11-30-2002, 10:53 PM	#35
Blankman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 41	Not to jump in the middle of your discussion, but I was listening to a fundy radio station the other day and they said spanking, according to the Bible, was okay (as a last resort). However, they suggested using some object to do the spanking with, that way your hand doesn't do the actual spanking. Huh? Yep, that's what they said. Personally, I do something (although rarely) that my Dad did with me instead of spanking. Pinching. Yes pinching. I didn't mind the spanking from my mother so much, but when I was threatened with pinch by my Dad, I straightened up real fast. I can truthfully say that I have never struck my children.

12-02-2002, 06:00 AM	#37
Claudia Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: France Posts: 715	I consider that it is important for my kids to be never afraid to report to me something they have done wrong (to be able to repair before it is too late). I consider that CP (or harsh psychological punishment) goes contrary to this goal.

12-02-2002, 07:10 AM	#38
Marruk Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 1,596	I'm against spanking in all instances. When the child is young, as others have already stated a simple yell of no and then removing the child from danger works quite nicely. And when the child is older there are all sorts of different ways to disciplin the child without violence. IMO spanking is just lazy parenting. It produces an emediate effect, and thus so many parents are too quick to use this as disciplin. It takes more time and effort to use an alternate form of punishment (like telling a child instead of going to chucky cheese they get to have a PBJ for dinner, and denighing themselves the joy and planning that they had made to share with their child) I havn't any children of my own, but as a child I was spanked almost every day when I was young. It didn't work, sure I would stop being bad when my mother spanked me, but after the pain wore away I would be right back at it (I was, and always have been fearless). Also it made me somewhat socially inept, because through my mothers spankings I learned to deal with my problems with violence. I still regret beating up my little brother and sisters and I truely feel that if my mother had not taught me to be so aggressive that I wouldn't have physically hurt my siblings as much. I feel this way because my younger siblings were not spanked (one is step form a different mother, and I took all the punishment for my brother) and they were not violent twards other people. (I am no longer violent towards other people, but it took me a lot longer to mature then it did for them) Just my 2 cents.

12-02-2002, 09:22 AM	#39
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	I'm with Sabine.... I am pro-spanking in very specific instances, based on my own childhood. There were only two offences that could result in spanking in my house; doing something you had been told not to that put your life at risk (like riding a bike into the street without looking) or looking your parents straight in the eye and lying (when they had definite evidence you were lying). In all I probably got 4 spankings in my entire childhood. I was rarely spanked right after the event...Rather the offence was explained to me and that I would be spanked in a few hours...The longest delay was 4 days when I had told a huge lie and my mother specifically refused to punish me in any way because she was still mad. Spankings were 10-15 'swats' to the buttocks with the bare hand...they stung a little but never lasted or made marks. The main issue was to have me think about what I had done and state specifically why I was being spanked before the punishment commenced. My parents employed other means of discipline like restricting TV watching, extra chores and grounding but I left childhood with no fears of them or lingering 'abuse' issues. As I remeber the spankings themselves were no big deal, it was the waiting and articulating why and what specifically I would not be doing in the future. In general, I think there is a fine line to walk when debating CP and children. There are many times in a child's young life when they are handled less than gently for thier own protection...when is it wrong?? My parents argued that the whole spanking ritual was to make a big deal out of the offence so I would remeber next time the consequences of my actions.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.