Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Baloo · 08-28-2002, 06:47 PM

Vaderzyden,

Do you feel you are an honest person? When you misquote people, you are being dishonest. You are very literally bearing false witness. Your attitude seems to be: "If I ignore my lies, my integrity remains." This just isn't true. Please admit that you lied, were dishonest, bore false witness, and apologize.

Or don't, and confirm the impression you are giving everyone on this board.

Or, hell, if you think you're not guilty, by all means, please explain how we've misconstrued your use of the quotes you gave in the "Challenge" thread.

(Edited for bump)

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Baloo ]</p>

Doubting Didymus · 08-28-2002, 07:10 PM

I think the dishonesty here is not vanderzydens.

I strongly suspect that van did not misquote these himself, but got them already misquoted from a creationist publication somewhere.

I can hardly blame him for this, which is why it is so wrong to misquote in the first place.

Does anyone have a copy of one of those creationist quotebooks? If so, could you check it for those quotes that van used?

Automaton · 08-29-2002, 01:00 AM

Doubting: Most of his material (including out-of-context quotes) seems to be lifted directly from Wells.

Daggah · 08-29-2002, 03:27 AM

However, Vanderzyden HAS been dishonest in his repeated evasions of discussions on certain topics and certain points raised.

tgamble · 08-29-2002, 06:55 AM

Which quotes are you talking about?

Baloo · 08-29-2002, 07:34 AM

If he didn't get the quotes from the immediate source, then he was dishonest for not listing the middleman, intermediate source. A slightly more forgiveable transgression, I'll admit, but dishonest nonetheless. But if that's all it is, then why not just admit it?

Why can't Vanzerzyden just admit that he screwed up, made a mistake, did not do his research, and will work to avoid such mistakes in the future?

Why the utter silence on the subject? Why the inflammatory attitude where he accuses people of WHINING?!? when they point out his lies, as if they are the guilty parties?

Vanderzyden, feel free to defend yourself at any time, if you feel your actions are defendable.

For all interested parties, please follow this <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001305" target="_blank">link</a>. Note VZ's original use of quotes, and the cases presented by Automaton, pangloss, and others demonstrating how dishonest Vanderzyden's quote usage is. See how this careful, through research is brazenly ignored by Vanderzyden - until he addresses all such objections to his lying with one broad stroke:

Quote:

I'm sorry, folks, but none of replies so far have been substantive. It's the same ol' stuff. In fact, all of the whining about "out-of-context" quotes and evasive maneuvers is nothing but strong affirmation of the article shown in the thread "The ID whining continues..."

For a very thorough breakdown of Vanderzyden's lies, see Automaton's post on page 3 of that thread.

Vibr8gKiwi · 08-29-2002, 12:29 PM

bump

Valentine Pontifex · 08-29-2002, 04:16 PM

As has been pointed out by others the dishonest quotes clearly came from other creationist writers.

Vaderzyden dishonesty comes in another form: that he did not cite the evolution deniers he got his quotes from.

Of course he is hardly alone in this failing. It seems at times that every other creationist on net boards has this problem. They simply don't seem to undertand that plaigerism is in and of itself a form of dishonesty.

It is also, of course, a major source of error since it only takes a single dishonest, sloppy, or incompetent quoter to form a misquote used by many.

Evolution deniers, one must not only give the citation of the original quote; if one got the quote indirectly, one must cite the source one actually got the quote from.

The "professional" creationists have the same problem. More than once I have found a quote they gave had a typo in the citation: wrong page number, year, or whatever. And yet multiple places had the exact same typo with no indication that a secondary source was used.

Vaderzyden will no doubt say that I did not observe all of these evolution deniers copying from other evolution deniers, though I say that this has happend is certain. If one understands why I made that conclusion then one should understand why <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/molgen/" target="_blank">plagiarized errors</a> are powerful evidence for evolution and, of course, understand why the chromosomal features noted by scigirl are also very powerful evidence for evolution.

Doubting Didymus · 08-29-2002, 04:19 PM

Quote:

One should understand why plagiarized errors are powerful evidence for evolution.

Brilliant! I'll have to remember this one.

RufusAtticus · 08-29-2002, 06:48 PM

Plagarizing is something that creationists don't understand. I remember calling one on blantent web-theft on ChristianForums. I haven't seen him since.

08-28-2002, 06:47 PM	#1
Baloo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 417	A thread vanderzyden might have missed... Vaderzyden, Do you feel you are an honest person? When you misquote people, you are being dishonest. You are very literally bearing false witness. Your attitude seems to be: "If I ignore my lies, my integrity remains." This just isn't true. Please admit that you lied, were dishonest, bore false witness, and apologize. Or don't, and confirm the impression you are giving everyone on this board. Or, hell, if you think you're not guilty, by all means, please explain how we've misconstrued your use of the quotes you gave in the "Challenge" thread. (Edited for bump) [ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Baloo ]</p>

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08-28-2002, 07:10 PM	#2
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	I think the dishonesty here is not vanderzydens. I strongly suspect that van did not misquote these himself, but got them already misquoted from a creationist publication somewhere. I can hardly blame him for this, which is why it is so wrong to misquote in the first place. Does anyone have a copy of one of those creationist quotebooks? If so, could you check it for those quotes that van used?

08-29-2002, 01:00 AM	#3
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	Doubting: Most of his material (including out-of-context quotes) seems to be lifted directly from Wells.

08-29-2002, 03:27 AM	#4
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	However, Vanderzyden HAS been dishonest in his repeated evasions of discussions on certain topics and certain points raised.

08-29-2002, 06:55 AM	#5
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	Which quotes are you talking about?

08-29-2002, 12:29 PM	#7
Vibr8gKiwi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: CA, USA Posts: 543	bump

08-29-2002, 04:16 PM	#8
Valentine Pontifex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 3,092	As has been pointed out by others the dishonest quotes clearly came from other creationist writers. Vaderzyden dishonesty comes in another form: that he did not cite the evolution deniers he got his quotes from. Of course he is hardly alone in this failing. It seems at times that every other creationist on net boards has this problem. They simply don't seem to undertand that plaigerism is in and of itself a form of dishonesty. It is also, of course, a major source of error since it only takes a single dishonest, sloppy, or incompetent quoter to form a misquote used by many. Evolution deniers, one must not only give the citation of the original quote; if one got the quote indirectly, one must cite the source one actually got the quote from. The "professional" creationists have the same problem. More than once I have found a quote they gave had a typo in the citation: wrong page number, year, or whatever. And yet multiple places had the exact same typo with no indication that a secondary source was used. Vaderzyden will no doubt say that I did not observe all of these evolution deniers copying from other evolution deniers, though I say that this has happend is certain. If one understands why I made that conclusion then one should understand why <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/molgen/" target="_blank">plagiarized errors</a> are powerful evidence for evolution and, of course, understand why the chromosomal features noted by scigirl are also very powerful evidence for evolution.

08-29-2002, 06:48 PM	#10
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Plagarizing is something that creationists don't understand. I remember calling one on blantent web-theft on ChristianForums. I haven't seen him since.

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