Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godless Dave · 07-03-2002, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by goody2shoes:
And most on this list are in that egotistical category ---- are you not?

No.

Brian K. · 07-03-2002, 11:55 AM

One thing i would like to say is that you can believe whatever you want. Even if today's society doesn't have a label for it. Thats the beauty in religion. One thing i can compare to your thoughts is on MIB when the camera is flying from the surface of the earth out into the universe and then it shows that our entire universe is a marble that an alien is using in a game of marbles...hmmm Thats deep.

Perchance · 07-03-2002, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by goody2shoes:


Hello Perchance,

As I said in another post, I was intentionally provocative - and that was probably unjustified.

What exactly made you change your mind about it?

Quote:

Let's face it, anyone searching for truth is confronted with the same problems that humans have faced for centuries. If there were clear cut answers then we could all go buy the book that reveals them and that would be the end of it.(That is true whether a atheist, a theist, a Christian or whatever.) I happen to be a Christian - but one with a somewhat "out of the box" outlook on things. Like you, I am willing to hear new ideas (not junk) either way.

Well, that's a relief. I thought you were going to claim that there was a book with all the answers (the Bible).

I like to hear new ideas, period. How can I know whether it's junk or not until I can compare it with other things, learn more about it, evaluate it in light of its context, and so on? So far, I have heard arguments offered in the defense of gods taken apart in ways that I agree with and the arguers cannot stand up to. However, with each new argument the process has to start all over again.

A question (and this is not meant as rude or demeaning): Do you decide an idea is "junk" if it conflicts with Christianity? Logic and science are among my basic hammers for hitting a new idea and seeing if it shatters. Is Christianity one of yours?

Quote:

I do think that God exists and is willing to make himself (herself) known to those who seek. From what I have observed, there is no one single "recipe" - but rather an individualized response.

I could be wrong of course. The Saint and synesthesia think so.

Goody

At least you admit you could be wrong- even if you don't think you are

.

Couldn't an individualized response include happiness without religion, though? I would certainly think so. The idea of religious worship is foreign to me. I can't comprehend a reason for integrating it into my life. I have no holes in my psyche to fill, and the free time I have is taken up with other, more interesting (to me) things.

Some people may "need" God or religious worship (I happen to think this would not be nearly so common if so many people weren't raised with the idea that they "need" these things, but let's put that aside for a moment). Isn't it logical to think that at least some don't?

-Perchance.

Keith Russell · 07-03-2002, 12:09 PM

Greetings:

Two things:

First. Matter and energy are all that exist; everything that 'is', is a form of matter or energy. (E = MC squared.) Matter and energy (existence/reality/truth) cannot be created or destroyed, so there is no reason to propose a Creator--since creation has never actually taken place.

Second. I have recently read that scientists have been able to reconstruct the events which took place a few nanoseconds before the Big Bang. This strongly suggests that the Big Bang was not the beginning; was not 'Creation', but just a redistribution and/or rearrangement of existence, again reaffirming that 'Creation' did not even take place with the Big Bang.

So, it isn't that I have searched for God, and did not find him, and thus I am now an atheist.

It is the fact that the concept of God (as God is almost always defined: Creator) is in direct contradiction to the facts--and nature--of reality/existence/truth itself.

Not only does God not exist, but--IMO--God cannot exist.

God is not possible.

Keith.

goody2shoes · 07-03-2002, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Perchance:


At least you admit you could be wrong- even if you don't think you are

.

Couldn't an individualized response include happiness without religion, though? I would certainly think so. The idea of religious worship is foreign to me. I can't comprehend a reason for integrating it into my life. I have no holes in my psyche to fill, and the free time I have is taken up with other, more interesting (to me) things.

Some people may "need" God or religious worship (I happen to think this would not be nearly so common if so many people weren't raised with the idea that they "need" these things, but let's put that aside for a moment). Isn't it logical to think that at least some don't?

-Perchance.

I have never mastered the science of splitting of text as you and others do on these posts, so you get what you get for replies to split text.

Insofar as allowing for the possibility that I may be wrong: Isn't that amazing? I am obviously in the minority for the infidels who post here and who evidently have great wisdom.

Many people do not need religion and act that way. That is especially true in this country (U.S.A.) where most are "fat cats" with no need of the so-called "crutch" of religion. Most so-called Christians don't go to church, don't get involved with useful ministries to the unfortunate, and just like to wear the appellation of Christian. I like to consider as Christians those who both believe it and do it. (This is a wonderful opening for some infidel to jump in and give some insulting generalizations of his/her notion of what a Christian should do.)

We were supposedly discussing God. Why do infidels always seem to turn it into Christianity rather than theism? I think we are far afield of Danny's request and I shall drop out. (no cheering please.)

For a definition of "junk", I would include 50 word proofs that there is not (or is) a God.

Respectfully,

Goody.

Oh, and I changed my mind about the provocative post because I made the saint swear at me, and saints should avoid swearing (I think).

Shadowy Man · 07-03-2002, 01:28 PM

Quote:

First. Matter and energy are all that exist; everything that 'is', is a form of matter or energy. (E = MC squared.) Matter and energy (existence/reality/truth) cannot be created or destroyed...

That is all that exists that you know of, that you are currently able to detect. And conservation laws are good models of the universe...

Quote:

Second. I have recently read that scientists have been able to reconstruct the events which took place a few nanoseconds before the Big Bang.

Woah! Reference please! This sounds quite astounding to me.

Perchance · 07-03-2002, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by goody2shoes:

I have never mastered the science of splitting of text as you and others do on these posts, so you get what you get for replies to split text.

After each section you want to quote, add {/QB}{/QUOTE}, replacing the { with [.

Quote:

Insofar as allowing for the possibility that I may be wrong: Isn't that amazing? I am obviously in the minority for the infidels who post here and who evidently have great wisdom.

Goody, I didn't mean this in a sarcastic way. Since you made a point of mentioning it, I wanted to acknowledge that I found it admirable.

Of course, for all I know, you may choose to take even this in a sarcastic manner. As you will.

Quote:

Many people do not need religion and act that way. That is especially true in this country (U.S.A.) where most are "fat cats" with no need of the so-called "crutch" of religion. Most so-called Christians don't go to church, don't get involved with useful ministries to the unfortunate, and just like to wear the appellation of Christian. I like to consider as Christians those who both believe it and do it. (This is a wonderful opening for some infidel to jump in and give some insulting generalizations of his/her notion of what a Christian should do.)

Well, doesn't "I like to consider as Christians those who both believe it and do it" an insulting generalization?

Or are generalizations permissible when one is inside the religion?

Quote:

We were supposedly discussing God. Why do infidels always seem to turn it into Christianity rather than theism? I think we are far afield of Danny's request and I shall drop out. (no cheering please.)

I wasn't going to cheer. I hoped you would stay and discuss this. As I mentioned, I don't understand the theistic mindset, and I find it frustrating that I don't understand it, when others seem to consider it crystal-clear. I am faced with the choice of trying to understand it or accepting that I just don't have the "criteria" (whatever those are) to do so.

When a theist drops out, to use your term, then I tend to sink even deeper into frustration, since yet another chance of trying to understand my fellow humans is gone.

Quote:

For a definition of "junk", I would include 50 word proofs that there is not (or is) a God.

Respectfully,

Goody.

Oh, and I changed my mind about the provocative post because I made the saint swear at me, and saints should avoid swearing (I think).

This seems to be more sarcasm.

I don't understand. Did you think I insulted you? I didn't mean to, and if you want to show me a statement where you think I did, I will be more than happy to either clarify or retract it.

Frustrated,
Perchance.

goody2shoes · 07-03-2002, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Perchance:


This seems to be more sarcasm.

I don't understand. Did you think I insulted you? I didn't mean to, and if you want to show me a statement where you think I did, I will be more than happy to either clarify or retract it.

Frustrated,
Perchance.

No sarcasm was intended. I was just trying to make a "jovial" remark and flunked. I have to learn how to post those little funny faces to indicate intent.

I'll stay as you requested.

Should we go offline or do think that others might be interested?

Goody

Perchance · 07-03-2002, 02:12 PM

Goody:

Thank you! I would be interested in discussing this.

I'm willing to either continue posting here or start a new thread (or you could start a new thread if you want to). I think there is the possibility that others will be interested, although we might have to move the thread to a different forum if it wanders too far from the philosophy topic.

Perhaps MRD (Miscellaneous Religon Discussion?)

-Perchance.

goody2shoes · 07-03-2002, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Perchance:
Goody:

Thank you! I would be interested in discussing this.

I'm willing to either continue posting here or start a new thread (or you could start a new thread if you want to). I think there is the possibility that others will be interested, although we might have to move the thread to a different forum if it wanders too far from the philosophy topic.

Perhaps MRD (Miscellaneous Religon Discussion?)

-Perchance.

Fine,

You pick the thread and tell me where it is. I may be offline now and then but I promise to follow through to some sort of ending, to be polite and open minded to the degree that I am able. If I sound sarcastic, it will not be intentional so just draw it to my attention.

Goody

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07-03-2002, 11:55 AM	#32
Brian K. Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Portsmouth, Virginia Posts: 50	One thing i would like to say is that you can believe whatever you want. Even if today's society doesn't have a label for it. Thats the beauty in religion. One thing i can compare to your thoughts is on MIB when the camera is flying from the surface of the earth out into the universe and then it shows that our entire universe is a marble that an alien is using in a game of marbles...hmmm Thats deep.

07-03-2002, 12:09 PM	#34
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: Two things: First. Matter and energy are all that exist; everything that 'is', is a form of matter or energy. (E = MC squared.) Matter and energy (existence/reality/truth) cannot be created or destroyed, so there is no reason to propose a Creator--since creation has never actually taken place. Second. I have recently read that scientists have been able to reconstruct the events which took place a few nanoseconds before the Big Bang. This strongly suggests that the Big Bang was not the beginning; was not 'Creation', but just a redistribution and/or rearrangement of existence, again reaffirming that 'Creation' did not even take place with the Big Bang. So, it isn't that I have searched for God, and did not find him, and thus I am now an atheist. It is the fact that the concept of God (as God is almost always defined: Creator) is in direct contradiction to the facts--and nature--of reality/existence/truth itself. Not only does God not exist, but--IMO--God cannot exist. God is not possible. Keith.

07-03-2002, 02:12 PM	#39
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	Goody: Thank you! I would be interested in discussing this. I'm willing to either continue posting here or start a new thread (or you could start a new thread if you want to). I think there is the possibility that others will be interested, although we might have to move the thread to a different forum if it wanders too far from the philosophy topic. Perhaps MRD (Miscellaneous Religon Discussion?) -Perchance.

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